Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

As announced today on our main site, we now have the opportunity to organise ourselves into a group if we want to purchase a bunch of the biodiesel that Waterway Construction has been using!
Due to the legal and logistical issues (as mentioned in the announcement), we can't just turn up and put it in our car's tanks from a bowser (yet). However, there is no reason why we could not purchase quantities in drums, to be distributed amongst ourselves off-site later.

This means that we will have to collect ourselves together, by posting here to register interest. Then we need to organise the logistics of purchasing and distributing among our group internally here as well.
This thread has been set up to facilitate this process. If we all post here, then we can all see what is going on. If you want to stay informed of developments, then subscribe to this thread and you can be emailed every time a post is made.

Personally I am eager to buy our first batch ASAP, but let's wait and see who else wants to join in and then we can decide on how before we can know when.

[Cameron Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Cameron]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Hi Robert,
I am keen and ready to go too.

I imagine that there are plenty of people out there who want to get and use biodiesel but who are waiting to see how we go.

I am in and I suggest that we also send a posting to the ecoliving-biodiesel email list (http://lists.cat.org.au/cgi-bin/m/li...ving-biodiesel) as there are lots of people on there who are keen but who may not yet have started to access this forum.

I think we should set a time limit on when the first purchase will be made and then just go for it regardless of how many or few we have. I think others will follow on when they are feeling confident that we are successful.

I suspect that it will be you and me liaising with Rick on behalf of 'the group' at least in the short term.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

You just echoed my thoughts exactly - we do need to set a time limit, or at least a purchase date.

Well, that's 2 of us now! I reckon we buy at least 500L between us.

Anyone else?

How about we say a month from here, or Sat 29th Oct?

Whoever posts a request here before then, we will include you too.
Once we have an agreement, we may start a private thread here to discuss the logistics of it and set a date in the calendar.

We'll liase directly with Rick, unless of course he wants to post in here.

[mattD110td5x Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close mattD110td5x]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Hi All,

You can put me down for a tank full (70 litres) to try and
if that's OK - I'll keep going.

What logistics are we thinking about here?

I work in Balmain and live in Lindfield.

I don't presently have a way of getting a 200L drum
around but I suppose I could get a box trailer from somewhere.

A drum and hand pump in a corner of the yard in Rozelle
actually would suit me better. I'm not sure they would be happy
with 20 drums and 20 hand pumps.

What about a drum and handpump with a padlock that
a few of us early adopters could share? pay up front,
book to fill in.... and pull the pin if the numbers don't
add up after the first couple of drums?

regards,
Matthew

[Cameron Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Cameron]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Hi Matt,
Robert was the one who actually chatted to Rick but I don't think that a drum in the corner of the yard is exactly what he will be looking towards.

I think it may be more likely to be the case - at least to start with - that we will have a pre-arranged day and time when we all 'pop in', stand around and chat with Rick a little bit, kick a few tyres, slap a few backs, pay for some fuel in drums or smaller containers of some sort, load up the fuel and head off. Having not yet checked out Rick's set up I am not sure if he will be able to (or keen to?) pump direct from his tanker into our vehicles (but it would be very cool if he did!).

As far as a trailer goes I have a heavy duty box trailer covered with a frame and a canopy. I am making some ramps to move drums etc in and out of it plus some chocks and have plenty of tie downs and don't mind helping a few of my biodiesel buddies out in the early days. I wouldn't be 'lending it' but would be prepared to tow it to help out. I could carry 3 - 4 drums in it legally and if we had access to a bigger tralier with brakes I can legally tow 3.5 tonnes with the defender.

The drums are about 200 litres and we could also look at 20 litre steel jerry cans (go the yellow 'diesel' cans rather than standard jerrys so you can be sure of what is in it is my advice if you don't yet have any) or the approved plastic fuel jerrys. The other option which I have always found good are those 25 litre squarish semi see through plastic ones that sit quitte stable on the ground and can be stacked on top of each other and can be handled quite easily. The beauty of doing it this way is that you know exactly how many litres you have or are putting in. 70 litre tank? OK so if you are nearly empty you will be able to pour X number of whatever size jerry into your tank.

These are some of the details that we will have to sort out with Rick and between our selves.

As for pumps I have a compressor powered set up that pressurises the drum and the fuel flows out directly down the hose and into wherever it is that you are trying to put it. I have a couple of ball valves in the line to shut off the flow at the start and near the end of the hose so that the pressurised tank and the hose can be isolated from each other. I have a compressor and pressure tank 'hard wired/plumbed' into my vehicle and a nice long air hose so I don't have to park right next to the drum if not necessary.

I also have my eye on a 12volt powered jobbie that has a hand nozzle like at the service stations and also a counter that shows how much fuel you have transfered which could be a good thing. You don't need to go this high tech but it would be very cool as it helps to keep track of how much fuel you have put into your tank and combined with a guesstimate of how low you were at the start and knowledge of the capacity of your tank it would make things a lot easier to ensure that the tank is filled right up to the brim and also that you don't surprise yourself with a sudden slosh or flow of biodiesel back out of your filler pipe which you then would have to clean up. So as you can see we should also get the makings of a spill kits and tarps and the like as well as a precaution. The stuff isn't exactly liquid plague but still - we don't want to make a mess!

They cost a bit over $200 bucks though. It might be the case that the buyers group could all chip in a few bucks for it and any spill equipment and any other enviro or safety equip we might want to have on hand just in case. It is no use shutting the gate after the horse has bolted!

I think Robert's suggestion of the end of the month is an excellent one as it will give us a bit of time to sort out these details amongst ourselves. If you have any friends that also might want some you should contact them now so that they can be included for this first run.

If people aren't on the list they are going to miss out. This is all fully legal and legit and so there is no reason for anyone to hold back or lurk.

The time is now.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

This is what I would like to use, as Cameron mentioned:



Several 25L carry containers like this would easily go in the back of my car, then be easily hauled in an out of my garage as needed. Perhaps if we all stocked up on these (I'll probably get 8 = 200L), then measuring, storing and transporting could be easy. They can be cheaply purchased at camping stores, or even places like Kmart.

The original conversation I'd had with Rick involved him supplying the fuel into new drums for us, which we would take away as required. I'm not sure if he'd be happy with us filling loads of piddly little containers, but it is worth considering. We'd also like to make it as easy for Rick as possible.

[Billyh Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Billyh]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Please count me Bill Horan in I have 7 20 litre jerry cans that I can carry in my land cruiser. I hate to get too commercial but I would like to know how muck I will be up for.
Thanks for including me in this forum

Bill.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Hi Bill,

We've not discussed any pricing yet with Waterway fuels, but I understand it will be roughly the same as petro-diesel. There may be some other incidentals to cover, but the more we have in our group the easier it will be. We'll work out the prices with Rick a bit closer to the time. For now we just need to know how many people and how much fuel they each want and how much we'll all get in total.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group - Private Area

I have now created a private area for people who have asked to join our purchasing group. Once you have requested to buy some biodiesel here in this thread, I will enable your login to access it. It is hidden from any other users, but once enabled on your account, it will appear as a sub-forum of this one.

The reason I have done this is:

It might not be a good idea to make completely public all of our arrangements. What if we organise for a set amount, split it amongst ourselves, organise our payments, then other people who have not subscribed and joined our group choose to show up on the day and try and add their bit? It could get messy and we want this to be structured and organised, seeing as this is our first attempt. If we made all of our arrangements, phone numbers, timing, locations and costs completely public, we are leaving ourselves open to trouble.

This is why we will insist that anyone who wants to buy fuel with us this time needs to show your interest first by posting in this thread. Once you've done this, I will allow you access to our private area where you will be able to see and contribute to our chats on how we will make it happen on the day.

It's OK to post questions and some info in this thread, but please save any private details for our private area.

Thanks,

[Cameron Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Cameron]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

OK Robert and buying crew,
That is cool with me.

I will 'see' you over there in the 'subthread' in a moment or two!

Cameron

[shaker Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shaker]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Purchasing group,

i don't think i will be buying any biodiesel on this suggested trip as i don't have a diesel vehicle yet!! i am in the early stages of changing from a petrol to a diesel car, i would however like to be part of the discussions and possibly come along for the ride to the plant at the end of october. So Robert please allow me to login to the subforum

an idea for disussion?
would it be possible for us to get our own bowser (my dad has just sold his property out west and i have asked him for one of his bowsers??) and have it at a central location, at the ecoliving centre (cameron??) and then people could fill up there, i'm not sure of the legal issues involved, i'm also not sure of the look on Cameron's face as i suggest this?? and i don't think there will be a massivre rush of people. .. just a thought, it seems like we will be waiting a while for the Rozelle thing to get off the ground, i also think turning up to the plant with forty 25 litre drums will look ordinary.

lastly, did Andy or Rick speak to us at the ecoliving centre?? What is their respective positions etc?? Is rick from another company??

darren

[Cameron Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Cameron]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Hi Darren,
Have thought about supplying out of Ecoliving Centre before but discounted due to the fact that we are also an organic garden and don't want to be handling fuels on a daily or even regular basis.

Also due to the fact that we are part of a Uni they would never give the go ahead and the neighbours would never accept it as a good idea either.

In essense we are an educational facility not a fuel outlet and so althought the idea has some attraction to it it just really isn't possible.

Regards,
cameron

[shaker Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shaker]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

fair enough, i thought there would be some major hurdles there, it would have been rather convenient for you and me too, although it sounds like you don't really need a supplier, (you have your source??).

i did also have some queeries about the pricing of the Biodiesel. Why does the price of petrodiesel influence the price of biodiesel??, this means that the biodiesel suppliers will be riding on the backs of inflated petroleum prices, i realise that they are a business and they are ulimately in it to make money but we will be the people taking the risks with engine warranties etc, why can't they come up with a price and then everyone knows what we are up for? I'm not just directing this at you cameron i'm really using the 'forum' in an effort to satisfy some confusion and frustration. I was a little annoyed when Andy? (can't remember his name) said at the meeting it would be a couple of cents cheaper than diesel, if diesel is at a ridiculus price then biodiesel will be as well? Imagine how well biodiesel would be received if it were 15 cents a litre cheaper than petrodiesel? what are your thoughts?

darren

[ianholland Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close ianholland]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

hi there
i would like to be involved in acquiring some biodiesel for my transporter.
Not sure of the logistics but the idea is very appealing

ian

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Sydney Biodiesel Purchasing Group

Ian, Darren - I've just activated your accounts now, so you should be able to get into the sub-forum.

Darren, the bowser sounds like a good idea, but there are many legal and licensing issues if you were to dispense fuel to the public. The pump is great, but you need a (licensed) place to store the fuel. Waterway Fuels has a mobile tanker (as pictured here)




The whole reason that we have to organise this purchasing group rather than just rocking up and filling our cars from it is that this is not set up for the general public, like your common neighbourhood service station is.

At our meeting last month, we were told that we'd have biodiesel from a bowser in Sydney. Unfortunately, this statement was made without proper consultation to the guy who would be running the bowser. This statement was made by Adrian, who does business development for the Australian Biodiesel Consultancy, who are running a commercial plant in Gosford, NSW. They are supplying their fuel to Waterways Constructions in Rozelle. Waterway Fuels is to be their distributor, but who they sell to and how they sell is entirely up to them.

I have since spoken to Rick of Waterway Fuels (who was not at our meeting) and clarified the situation. He's sympathetic to the biodiesel enthusiasts like ourselves and has offered to supply us fuel as he would to any other organisation, fleet operator, local council etc. As long as we can get ourselves together and buy a batch, with a single signatory signing for the pickup and an agreement that the fuel is supplied as a trial to the Sydney Biodiesel Users Group, he will accommodate us.

Now we need to make this happen among ourselves. Rick is not going to treat us like the average general public retail fuel customer. We have to organise ourselves in a manner that one of his commercial clients might be in. We need to turn up to take a delivery of fuel in a single bulk amount and pay for it in one hit.

How we do this, we will discuss in our private area.