Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Jonatben

Out of curiosity, why tests do you offer, are the tests performed in a recognised testing laboratory, and what is the cost.

[Pitti Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Pitti]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi,
my diesel turns out clean in the warnqvest test. Nevertheless I've got problems with blocked fuel filters. Just wondering if anyone does more testing on byproducts? The diesel washes without layers, looks transparent and I filter it before fuelling the tank.
Thanx Petra

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

> Total WVO reacted. 200 litres.

> Total methanol used 40 litres.

I think that's part of your problem right there. The proportion of MeOH varies from user to user, but I have always used 20% MeOH - not the 16.6% that you have used. Thus, for 200L WVO, I'd have added 50L MeOH

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Is it suggested that you use 20% methanol, by volume of the original oil, or that the mixture should contain 20% methanol?

If it is the former, the that is what he has done.

i.e. 40/200 = 0.2 (20%)

40/240 = 0.1667 (16.7%)

Edit: looking at the "Dr Pepper Technique" is suggests the following

MATERIALS REQUIRED
1 litre oil- new or used
NaOH (lye/ caustic soda), at least 6g. Used as a drain cleaner and can often be found next to the Drano.
Methanol at least 250ml. HEET® Gas- Line Antifreeze in the yellow bottle is methanol and readly available in most auto supply stores in the USA.

Now, this uses an amount of methanol equal to 25% of the original oil, which means 20% of the mixture volume is methanol. So to get the same ratio you would have needed 50L of methanol, rather than 40L.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Check out this video. Noise in the background was a roller door being blown around by a strong wind.

YouTube - Biodiesel 3/27 Methanol Test

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Is it suggested that you use 20% methanol, by volume of the original oil, or that the mixture should contain 20% methanol?

If it is the former, the that is what he has done.

i.e. 40/200 = 0.2 (20%)

40/240 = 0.1667 (16.7%)

Edit: looking at the "Dr Pepper Technique" is suggests the following

Now, this uses an amount of methanol equal to 25% of the original oil, which means 20% of the mixture volume is methanol. So to get the same ratio you would have needed 50L of methanol, rather than 40L.

I wonder what others are doing?
The instructions I first received were to add 20% methonal to 1 litre of VO.

To 100 Litres of oil do you add 20Litres of methonal or
To 100 Litres of oil do you add 25Litres of methonal or
In 100 Litres of oil/methonal mix, do you have 20% methonal and 80% VO?
George

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello George

By custom, methanol and oil are measured by volume by backyard producers.
20% methanol is 20% of the volume of the oil being reacted.

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

I wonder what others are doing?
The instructions I first received were to add 20% methonal to 1 litre of VO.

No - that should be 20% in 1 litre

[/quote]
To 100 Litres of oil do you add 20Litres of methonal or
To 100 Litres of oil do you add 25Litres of methonal or
In 100 Litres of oil/methonal mix, do you have 20% methonal and 80% VO?
George[/quote]

Not 1, but 2 and 3, which are the same. 2 is 25/125 = 20%, and 3 is 20/100 = 20%

I have always made up a brew that is 20% MeOH in the final product (like Troy explained). That means that the MeOH I add is 25% of my starting oil.

To 80 litres of oil I add 20 L of MeOH. (20/80) = 25%.

But now the total volume is 100 L, so I now have 20% MeOH in the final mix. (20/100 = 20%)

I am no expert, but the lowest total percentage that I have seen someone use is 18% - the question that started this thread used 16.6% (40 in 250).

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

No - that should be 20% in 1 litre

To 100 Litres of oil do you add 20Litres of methonal or
To 100 Litres of oil do you add 25Litres of methonal or
In 100 Litres of oil/methonal mix, do you have 20% methonal and 80% VO?
George[/quote]

Not 1, but 2 and 3, which are the same. 2 is 25/125 = 20%, and 3 is 20/100 = 20%

I have always made up a brew that is 20% MeOH in the final product (like Troy explained). That means that the MeOH I add is 25% of my starting oil.

To 80 litres of oil I add 20 L of MeOH. (20/80) = 25%.

But now the total volume is 100 L, so I now have 20% MeOH in the final mix. (20/100 = 20%)

I am no expert, but the lowest total percentage that I have seen someone use is 18% - the question that started this thread used 16.6% (40 in 250).[/quote]
This is something that I think is very confusing and may be the root cause of the problems I have been experiencing.
The Sticky at the top of this forum 'Making Biodiesel' has this:
What you’ll need to get started
A few small glass containers and a dish. (1500mls, 500mls) You can NEVER use these again for human consumption
Blender with a glass bowl or alternate means of mixing
Sodium Hydroxide – NaOH or Potassium Hydroxide – KOH (You can use either and I have included both in the procedure but you’ll need to use 1.4 times more KOH than NaOH)
200mls Methanol
1000mls clean (unused) vegetable oil
Temperature gauge – up to 60C will do for this test
Heated water.

So, should this be 250ml?

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

To be consistent with the "Dr Pepper Technique", yes.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Just a word about the recommendation on the World Famous Dr Pepper TEchnique (Pat Pend)
It says "Use 250ml of methanol. This is more methanol than most people use but will help insure a successful first batch."

Most People that wish to make very high conversion biodiesel in a single stage reaction typically use between 20- 22% methanol.
That means that for every 100litres of WVO they will add 20- 22 litres of methanol mixed with the appropriate amount of NaOH/KOH

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

What you’ll need to get started
A few small glass containers and a dish. (1500mls, 500mls) You can NEVER use these again for human consumption
Blender with a glass bowl or alternate means of mixing
Sodium Hydroxide – NaOH or Potassium Hydroxide – KOH (You can use either and I have included both in the procedure but you’ll need to use 1.4 times more KOH than NaOH)
200mls Methanol
1000mls clean (unused) vegetable oil
Temperature gauge – up to 60C will do for this test
Heated water.

So, should this be 250ml?

Yes - in this case you would use 250mL.

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Just a word about the recommendation on the World Famous Dr Pepper TEchnique (Pat Pend)
It says "Use 250ml of methanol. This is more methanol than most people use but will help insure a successful first batch."

Most People that wish to make very high conversion biodiesel in a single stage reaction typically use between 20- 22% methanol.
That means that for every 100litres of WVO they will add 20- 22 litres of methanol mixed with the appropriate amount of NaOH/KOH

Which would give you between 16.6% and 18.0% in the final mix. Most people want at least 20% in their final mix. To get 20-22% in this case you would add between 25 and 28 litres.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Marki

I can assure you that by tradition, custom, and every day useage on biodiesel forums, when people say 20% methanol they mean a volume of methanol equal to 20% of the total volume of Oil in the reaction.
If you were reacting 100 litres of WVO this would be 20% of 100 which is 20 litres.
That is the tradition and everyone uses it.
Most people want to Pass the Warnqvest test which can occur using a volume of methanol that is 20% of the total volume of WVO in the reaction.

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Marki

I can assure you that by tradition, custom, and every day useage on biodiesel forums, when people say 20% methanol they mean a volume of methanol equal to 20% of the total volume of Oil in the reaction.
If you were reacting 100 litres of WVO this would be 20% of 100 which is 20 litres.
That is the tradition and everyone uses it.
Most people want to Pass the Warnqvest test which can occur using a volume of methanol that is 20% of the total volume of WVO in the reaction.

Speaking as an industrial chemist, percentage figures are always quoted as the % in the final mix. That avoids exactly the confusion that this discussion has highlighted. But ultimately, of course, you can define it how you want - just as long as you define it unambiguously.

At the moment I am making a brew in which the MeOH is 20% of the total volume (oil + MeOH). If I can get away with a lower % I can save myself some MeOH.

tillyfromparadise thinks that most people use 16.7% MeOH in their total volume. Can I have some more opinions on this - what proportion do others use?