Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello marki

tillyfromparadise thinks that most people use 16.7% MeOH in their total volume.

You have misunderstood what I said. I said:
"Most People that wish to make very high conversion biodiesel in a single stage reaction typically use between 20- 22% methanol."
This is 20- 22% of the volume of oil reacted, not 20- 22% of the total volume.
I said nothing about what most people use, only those people who wish to make very high conversion in a single stage.
I must admit that i do not know most people that make biodiesel, but my observation has been that the people who I do know of that do wish to make very high conversion biodiesel typically use between 20 and 22% methanol in the reaction.
I know of people that do not wish to make very high conversion biodiesel and people that use two stage methods. These people would usually use less methanol.
At one point when I was making biodiesel I was using between 10- 12% methanol. I do not think it would have passed the warnqvest test, but it worked fine in my old Holden Isuzu Gemini.

You might want to check with some of the more main stream biodiesel production forums

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Tilly - What he is saying, is that when you say 20L of methanol to 100L of methanol it is the same as having 16.6% methanol in the final mixture/solution.

The words "between 20 and 22% methanol in the reaction" imply that the reaction mixture is 20-22% methanol (20% of the original oil could also be written 16.6%v/v).

However you are both agreeing on what you said in your post, just saying it in different ways. I understand the convenience for the home biodiesel brewer to describe a quantity of methanol as a % of the original oil, but unfortunately it is a little bit ambiguous the way it is sometimes described.

Convention in biodiesel forums is fine, but I feel it would be a good idea to at least be specific in what is being referred to, as there has been conventions in chemistry and engineering for a very long time.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Troy

Yes, I understand what marki is saying.
Unfortunatly internet biodiesel was not originally started by Chemists. Well meaning hippies with limited science seems to be more accurate.
So there are some "Conventions" that some chemists might find annoying.
Fortunatly most chemists have been able to adapt to internet "Biodiesel Speak" without losing too much sleep.
At this point in time there is just too much information posted on the internet to easily change the Jargon that has developed.

When discussing quantities of methanol, unless otherwise specified, it is always expressed as a percentage of the total oil reacted V/V, just as speed signs in Melbourne are always posted in km/h

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Perhaps then for clarity, it would be worth saying in any future posts "use a volume of methanol equivalent to 20% the volume of oil used." rather than "20% methanol in the reaction"

It's not the terminology per say, it's the ambiguous nature of it.

edit: v/v% refers to volume of the total solution.
you have not been using that terminology. v/v% = (volume of solute/volume of solvent)*100%

i.e. 20L of methanol in 100L of oil is 16.6%v/v

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Troy

Now you have me confused.
It took me about 5 minutes to figure out what people were talking about. I think I will continue to post as I always have and the newcomers can sort it out for themselves

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Ok, lets put this in a way that can't me misunderstood.
You have 100 litres of vegetable oil and you want to make high conversion biodiesel in a one stage process.

tillyfromparadise, how much methanol would you add?
marki, how much would you add?
TroyH, how much would you add?
Anybody else care to declare what is their normal practice?

I would add 20 litres of Whitties best and I would like to know if I am short-changing my brew?

George

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello George

If I were doing a single stage procedure and I wanted to "Just scrape in" with a pass on Warnqvest, I would use about 20 litres of methanol.

Some people have claimed a pass with 18 litres of methanol but in my mind that is an exception at this point

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

I was never suggesting any particular amount of methanol, merely questioning what people meant by their quantity descriptions, but:

If you were directly upscaling the amounts described in the Dr Pepper technique, as Tilly posted, you would add 25L.

(this is 20% v/v, which means 20% of the reaction mixture is methanol, but the volume of methanol is equivalent to 25% of the volume of the original oil)

I hope I'm not causing more confusion.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello Troy

If you were directly upscaling the amounts described in the Dr Pepper Titration technique, as Tilly posted, you would add 25L.
I hope I'm not causing more confusion.

There is a World Famous Dr Pepper Technique (Pat Pend) and a World Famous Chopstick Titration technique (Pat Pend). There is not a Dr Pepper Titration Technique.
But I am not confused!
As I pointed out before, the recommendation for 25% methanol in the World Famous Dr Pepper Technique (Pat Pend) is more than most people use and is made to help insure a successful first batch. Unfortunately, no doubt for some metaphysical reason that I do not clearly understand, many beginners seemeded to often make a Gel. It might have had something to do with many websites recommend using 15% methanol in the reaction back in the old days.
Anyway, I found that 25% methanol was much less likely to gel and much more likely to separate.
Later Neutral performed some GC tests that showed 20% methanol was about the minimum you could use in a single stage and hope to pass ASTM conversion which is the holy grail of conversion.

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

now fixed

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Ok, lets put this in a way that can't me misunderstood.
You have 100 litres of vegetable oil and you want to make high conversion biodiesel in a one stage process.

tillyfromparadise, how much methanol would you add?
marki, how much would you add?
TroyH, how much would you add?
Anybody else care to declare what is their normal practice?

I would add 20 litres of Whitties best and I would like to know if I am short-changing my brew?

George

I have been using 25L (20% in final mix). But if I could use less, I'd like to do so - that's why I'm after the opinion of others on this.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello marki

If you wish to use less methanol give Neutral's 16.3% Base/Base method a burl. It works.

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

I have been using Neutral's 16.3% Base/Base method for my last few batches, it's a bit of extra work but I concur with Tilly that it makes perfect biodiesel and saves on methanol. In Marki's terminology this would equate to 14% of the total volume.

[The Gos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close The Gos]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Help Please

I am having trouble passing the 27/3 test and have just about run out of ideas.
process 100l oil
20l meth
90 % KOH
oil tiltrates at about 5.5 (1330 grams) even resorted to PH meter to check
1/2 meth in
1 1/2 hr process at 55 c
great seperation 12hrs later
27/3 fail small drops in bottom of container
any ideas?

[mydzull Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close mydzull]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello,
I'm zul from malaysia and i'm very new here.. I'm working on the biodiesel since last august and now working for my 1st home-made biodiesel production kit. My goal is to utilize the used frying oil (UFO) from fast food restaurant here as their wastage rate of UFO is very high and they had to pay for the disposal. Now, I plan to ake these free oil and convert it to biodiesel for business purpose.