Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

[Krisso Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Krisso]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi Tilly,

The link to "Chopstick Titration" does not work.

Regards, Krisso

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi Krisso,
I have just re-posted it Here

[2000 F350 7.3L Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 2000 F350 7.3L]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello. New to making bio-diesel. I am not making large batches yet. So far just two half liter batches.

First test batch I did the 3/27 test and got about a drop blob in the bottom. So I figured I messed something up. I let it sit for a week and then heated it to get the remaining methanol out. After letting it sit for 24 hours I did the 3/27 test again and this time got a very small amount. Enough to see but that is about it. The stuff looks really clear now. I am pretty sure I didn't use enough lye with this batch as I was using spoons not a scale. I also have not washed it yet, just heated it to remove the methanol.

What does that small spot of oil equate to on a large scale? Would that come out in a wash? Is it most likely just unconverted oil? Could it be filtered out? This is just so I know what to do if it happens on a large batch.

I also tried to wash about 90ml of it and it made a lot of soap. At least it was white and foamy. It settled after a day but the biodiesel was really murky still.

Anyways I haven't messed with my 2nd test batch yet. Any comments are appreciated.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi F350,

Well there is pretty easy way to look at it. regardless of your method of bio brewing, if you put 3ml of your brew in the meth, and a certain amount drops out, just measure that amount. suck it up with a gradated syringe while it is still in the meth. turn your syringe upwards so you can see how many fractions of a ml of oil is left, and there is your conversion rate. i.e. if only 0.5ml of oil left over, then you have had 17% of oil not convert.

As a general note - my fuel rarely passes warnies test, and I use a base rate of 3.5g/l. I use 3.5 purely so I can get my glycerine out in time before it goes hard. I once tried 5g/l base rate to see what all the fuss is about, and well bugger me, I got a 100% conversion.

Glycerine went hard though and nearly cost me a massive heartache trying to get it out of the mixer with 200l litres of fuel on top of it.

My car happily accepts fuel that is slightly undercooked, but If i was to run my fuel in a later model common rail, I would certainly be going for the 100% conversion.

[2000 F350 7.3L Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 2000 F350 7.3L]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hey thanks for the reply. I am not sure how much of the stuff showed up in the bottom there. I would have to say the 2nd 3/27 test I did was perhaps 1-3% just guessing. I was just wondering what that unconverted would do in my fuel tank? Would it get caught in the filter or just burn up with the rest of it?

Your comment about the 3.5g/l vs 5g/l has me confused. My first batch was probably 3g/l so a little short and my 2nd batch was about 5g/l and the glycerin basically looks the same. It is still liquid in the jar after over a week. Does it normally harden in the processor before you can drain it at room temperature if you use 5g/l?

Thanks again. I will post further questions in a separate thread, just used this since it was a 3/27 question.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hello. New to making bio-diesel. I am not making large batches yet. So far just two half liter batches.
What does that small spot of oil equate to on a large scale?

No one has ever been able to demonstrate a relationship between the amount of dropout and Conversion. And it is not from a lack of trying.
The test apparently only detects triglycerides and not the Mono and di glycerides.
Also there might be some biodiesel bound up in the glob of oil that drops out. The simple answer is, to quote a famous Washington DC Mayor, "Nobody know"

Would that come out in a wash?

It is not water soluible. You might make an emulsion with some of it and remove some with the emulsion.

Is it most likely just unconverted oil?

There could also be some biodiesel bound up with it.

Could it be filtered out?

No

Hi Cade,
Just to be pedantic, because this is an equilibrium reaction you will never achieve 100% conversion. But 99%+ is possible All it takes is about 98% to pass this test.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi All,

Just revisiting a golden old thread, and I have a question. I have been making bio for a little while now, and am happy with my quality. Just ticked over 180k in the cruiser on b100, with the only repair issue being failure of an oil seal on my IP. Granted, it was a doozy though.

My question relates to the 3/27 test, as per this thread. I sporadically do a 3/27 test, just for interests sake really, as I know my pump, injectors and engine in general is happy with the fuel.

I have never really delved into the finer points of the test.

How long do you need to wait before measuring the dropout?

Will all the 3mls of oil drop out eventually?

If so, when you measure the dropout would be critical for a meaningful test. When I have done my occasional test, I left it for prob 30 mins or so. Initially I noticed a really small amount, but it continues to grow over time it seems.

Or should you wait until the solution has fully cleared?

I couldn't see this covered before, so forgive me if I am going over old ground.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi cade,
If the container is vapor tight and no methanol can evaporate there should never be any drop out for a pass.
My limited experience has been that if the methanol immediately goes clear after shaking and there is no drop-out within maybe 5 minutes then there will probably never be any drop out.

If it remains cloudy after shaking then you need to wait a while to see what happens.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi Tilly,

thats a good point. I just did it in an open top jar. Mind you I dont think that much would evaporate in the short time. I know I dont make high conversion fuel, so I am not that fussed, it was more for interests sake than anything.

Thanks again,

[Prickle Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prickle]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Received this in my inbox today How To Test Biodiesel For Conversion - 3/27 Methanol Test - Utah Biodiesel Supply - YouTube ... what do you guys think????

Stuart

EDIT :: is the video actually about the 3/27 test ????????????????

[gilfish Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gilfish]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

The video is about the 3/27 test, I was a bit surprised to see 68F to 72F as we are metric that converts to 20C to 22C , I have been doing mine at 18C to 20C. I try to maintain 20C using ice bath and glass flasks with glass stoppers, also it is important that both oil and methanol are 20C, like tilly i wait 5-10 mins it will show in that time. It is interesting to note that the methanol will cool or heat much quicker than the bio so if my meth is 18 and my bio 20 I will mix and maintain 19/20,also it makes no difference if you mix the bio to the meth or the meth to the bio as the vid shows. It is a good test one that I do twice with every batch.I have noticed that even though it doesnt show mono as a residue in the bottom like tri and di it does reveal itself as a cloudy pass with no dropout and is a nightmare to wash due to the mono

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

Hi Stuart,
It is about the 3/27 test, however...
All those years ago when I originally performed the testing that led to my development and the subsiquent popularity of my 3/27 version of Jan Warnqvest's test, all I used to perform the testing was a spare spice bottle and a few new syringe which cost about 50 cents each. And it only took about 1 day!!!
I see that Mr blair is now selling kits to perform my 3/27 procedure for substantially more. Good luck to him.

I have always been amazed at how people have reacted to this test! Some people really seem to want this ten-cent test to be the equivalent of a GC test.

Watching the video I do have some concerns.
In my original post of the 3/27 test the instructions are “Shake jar hard for 5 seconds.”
Mr Blair has changed that in the video to “turn it a couple times” while on the screen it says “cap and lightly shake”. I am curious why he has changed that and I would like to see the testing he has performed that led to this change.

Another concern I have is with the “rule of thumb” he states at the end of the video. I am interested to know where this rule of thumb came from.

Received this in my inbox today How To Test Biodiesel For Conversion - 3/27 Methanol Test - Utah Biodiesel Supply - YouTube ... what do you guys think????

Stuart

EDIT :: is the video actually about the 3/27 test ????????????????

[Prickle Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prickle]

Re: Warnqvest Conversion Test (3/27 27/3)

I'm sorry gents ... I have obviously had a serious seniors moment of course that video is about the 3/27 test .. the one email had 2 links in it looked at one and posted the linked to the other.... SORRY

Stuart