Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

When I developed my room temperature method a few years ago, I always thought that it had potential for large scale manufacture, as you didn't have the costs and logistics of heating large volumes of oil.

I've now been approached by an investor who is interested in setting up a commercial venture here in WA. The chemistry part is easy - in fact I've modified the method and replaced the quicklime with something a little more practical (and cheaper), but I know nothing about the commercial or regulatory side of things.

Does anyone here know how you go about getting a licence/permit to manufacture fuel? Are the regs any different with biofuel to petroleum fuel? What (federal I presume) gov't dept manages and administers this?

This is not the kind of info I expect anyone to know off the top of their heads, but if anyone knows someone, who knows someone, who knows someone, who knows someone who knows, I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction

Cheers

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Hi Mark,

When I developed my room temperature method a few years ago, I always thought that it had potential for large scale manufacture, as you didn't have the costs and logistics of heating large volumes of oil....

All the Base only reactions can be performed at room temperature. It has been done for years.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

...I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction
Cheers

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Hi Mark,
All the Base only reactions can be performed at room temperature. It has been done for years.

Then you'll be changing this soon:

MAKING THE BIODIESEL!
When the Oil's temp has dropped to 55 deg c or a bit less, using a funnel, pour the litre of oil into a DRY 2 litre Dr Pepper bottle (in a pinch any other brand of bottle will do).
Take the mixture of methanol/NaOH (commonly called methoxide on this forum) and pour on top of the oil using the same funnel.
Remove funnel.
Screw the top down TIGHT onto the bottle.
Shake vigerously for about ten seconds/ 40 good shakes.
NO appreciable pressure is generated during this mixing.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Déjà vu...

[WesleyB Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close WesleyB]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Dr Mark; I've only completed about two years in college chemistry. As a rule of thumb for every 10 degrees centigrade increase in temperature the reaction rate increases about double. So if I react potassium hydroxide in dry methanol at 65 degrees, with new vegetable oil to produce methyl biodiesel, if I do it at 25 degrees (room temperature) it will take about 16 hours to do the same thing, assuming the reaction activation temperature is below room temperature? Any comment?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Hi WesleyB,

Dr Mark; I've only completed about two years in college chemistry.

To provide a bit of additional information. The word College means something different in the USA and Australia.
In the USA the word College is interchangeable with University. a University is made up of a number of different Colleges of study.
As an example, you might graduate with a BS from the University of Maryland, College of Education.

In Australia college means either a high school or the dormitory you live in at University

I notice you are from Texas USA and I assume you did your two years of chemistry in the USA. University courses are run very differently here in Australia.

The US University system is set up to produce a graduate with a broad knowledge about the world they live in- a well rounded man or woman.
For instance, you will be required to do a certain amount of study in subjects such as English, and History. As well, you will be required to select form other subject such as Philosophy, psychology, geology, geography, Phys Ed, general maths, general science etc for additional study.
Typically, it takes 4 years to satisfy the requirements of a Bachelors Degree from an American University. The first two years tend to be general courses and the last two years are course specific. That is why Jr Colleges can typically satisfy the first two years of study for many degrees in the US system.

In Australia the training is course specific. When my daughter did Vet Science, from day one, every class was directly relevant to training her to be a Veterinarian. No English or history or psychology or philosophy or anything that was not directly relevant to performing the profession of a Veterinarian.
Typically it takes 3 years to earn a Bachelors degree in Australia.
So in Australia, third year in Chemistry would nearly have a Bachelors degree.

Any comment?

I noticed Mark was signed in yesterday evening but did not answer you.

[WesleyB Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close WesleyB]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

I took Chemistry after graduating high school. I took chemistry in high school (2 semesters). Here the college engineering chemistry is different than the chemistry taken by nursing students. I took 2 semesters of 1st year university chemistry twice. I took 1st semester organic chemistry twice, and 2nd semester organic chemistry once. I did 2 or 3 semesters of under graduate organic research at a university. So I've got 18 to to 33 university credit hours in chemistry chemistry depending on how you look at it. My grade point average was 3.9 the last time the college notified me what it was. Any way I been studying some about biodiesel for 2 or more years. Thanks tilly from paradise I didn't know about the difference in colleges and universities. Just that universities are bigger. Here I took up to 2nd year university chemistry. I haven't taken quantitative analysis yet, they stopped offering it at the local college. I have read that some people in the United Kingdom buy prepared anhydrous methoxide solution then dilute it with new dry methanol to make the biodiesel with, has any one here done it? It might not be worth the cost except as an experiment.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Mark,

A fellow WARFA member, Rob, ran a mid sized commercial Bio operation in Midland for a number of years. He used to supply interstate trucking operators amongst others.

He may come along to the Bonnets Up/BBQ/AGM on Oct 13 that I've sent you notices about and you could chat to him about it. Alternatively if you PM me, I will see if he is willing to chat about his enterprise - now closed down. You would have also seen in the email notices I send out, the several 2000 litre tanks that Brig has for sale. Would be a good start for a decent setup. He also made larger quantities but I think it was for private use only - earthmoving company.

Tim

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Hi WesleyB

My grade point average was 3.9 the last time the college notified me what it was.

As I recall, my daughters graduated Vet school with a GPA around 5.8 Of course that is out of 7, not out of 4.

I have read that some people in the United Kingdom buy prepared anhydrous methoxide solution then dilute it with new dry methanol to make the biodiesel with, has any one here done it? It might not be worth the cost except as an experiment.

That would be sodium methylate. It is my understanding that many commercial biodiesel producers routinely use sodium methylate.

I notice you have deleted part of your latest post.
I had the same concerns you expressed about the method you mentioned. I do not understand how the original procedure which only removed the water produced when mixing KOH/NaOH with the methanol could be better than using sodium methylate.

[gilfish Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gilfish]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

I have been trying to source sodium methylate (CH3ONA) Univar Ingleburn in NSW distributes it but after 4 phone conversations nothing has eventuated. I think it is because I am a hobbyist and this place deals with large producers.It is Powder form and will need to be mixed with methanol to a 30% solution this seems to be the highest concentration available, perhaps saturation point?

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Can you please tell me the purpose of this post?

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Dr Mark; I've only completed about two years in college chemistry. As a rule of thumb for every 10 degrees centigrade increase in temperature the reaction rate increases about double. So if I react potassium hydroxide in dry methanol at 65 degrees, with new vegetable oil to produce methyl biodiesel, if I do it at 25 degrees (room temperature) it will take about 16 hours to do the same thing, assuming the reaction activation temperature is below room temperature? Any comment?

It depends how much you are using. By definition a catalyst speeds up the reaction rate. With my method it goes to completion in a few minutes.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Mark,

A fellow WARFA member, Rob, ran a mid sized commercial Bio operation in Midland for a number of years. He used to supply interstate trucking operators amongst others.

He may come along to the Bonnets Up/BBQ/AGM on Oct 13 that I've sent you notices about and you could chat to him about it. Alternatively if you PM me, I will see if he is willing to chat about his enterprise - now closed down. You would have also seen in the email notices I send out, the several 2000 litre tanks that Brig has for sale. Would be a good start for a decent setup. He also made larger quantities but I think it was for private use only - earthmoving company.

Tim

Yeah that was the idea - make the bio for a company that uses a lot of trucks and stuff. I'll email you and see if I can have a chat to him. My enquiries so far have come up with the fact that supply will be a problem in large quantities. Cookers in Malaga supply WVO at $600-800 a ton, which is a bit exy. So the trick would be to cut out the middleman and get it straight from someone that uses a lot - KFC etc.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Setting up a commercial BD manufacturing facility

Hi Mark,
You have been busy on this forum this afternoon.

With my method it goes to completion in a few minutes.

That is great to hear.
Can you explain what you mean when you said "goes to completion in a few minutes"
Most people here seem to think it means most of the WVO has been changed to biodiesel and will will pass the 3/27 test or better still, pass ASTM testing.

If I can provide you with any further help just ask. I have a lot of experience.