1 litre test batch with new oil issues

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

hi ,
having issues with my 1 litre test batch below is what im doing ,
1 litre new canola oil
5.5g koh
225ml methanol
mix for 3 hours with a mini processor , 27/3 test during process

It seems to pass the 27/3 test however it fails a wash test , seperates slowly , and ends up with a white layer between bio and water

Any ideas on what im doing wrong would be appreciated

cheers jasen

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

hi ,
having issues with my 1 litre test batch below is what im doing ,
1 litre new canola oil
5.5g koh
225ml methanol
mix for 3 hours with a mini processor , 27/3 test during process

It seems to pass the 27/3 test however it fails a wash test , seperates slowly , and ends up with a white layer between bio and water

Any ideas on what im doing wrong would be appreciated

cheers jasen

there is lots of different ways to get a result, but a basic recipe fix for you is to use 8 grams of potassium (base rate) and 200 ml meth. Are mixing meth and potassium first? If so on a 1 litre batch 10mins of mixing is heaps. I use 1 hr of mixing on a 200l batch.

Good luck!

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

thanks cade,
yeah i mix the meth and pottasium first for 10mins then add to oil
is the 8 grams as a base rate variable due to % strength of the KOH ?

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

hi ,
having issues with my 1 litre test batch below is what im doing ,
1 litre new canola oil
5.5g koh
225ml methanol
mix for 3 hours with a mini processor , 27/3 test during process

It seems to pass the 27/3 test however it fails a wash test , seperates slowly , and ends up with a white layer between bio and water

Any ideas on what im doing wrong would be appreciated

cheers jasen

there is lots of different ways to get a result, but a basic recipe fix for you is to use 8 grams of potassium (base rate) and 200 ml meth. Are mixing meth and potassium first? If so on a 1 litre batch 10mins of mixing is heaps. I use 1 hr of mixing on a 200l batch.

Good luck!

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

there is lots of different ways to get a result, but a basic recipe fix for you is to use 8 grams of potassium (base rate) and 200 ml meth. Are mixing meth and potassium first? If so on a 1 litre batch 10mins of mixing is heaps. I use 1 hr of mixing on a 200l batch.

Good luck!

That's weird. Looks like I repeated myself! Whoops. Anyway, yes I use a base rate of 8grams plus titration for my potassium mixes. As you are using unused oil, the base rate is all you need. I wasn't very clear before, I mix my meth brew prior for about 5 mins, enough to dissolve the catalyst. Then this is pumped into the oil and mixed for 1 hour. I feel that 1 hour is overkill in my mixer, but it works, so I don't bother to change.

Is is that a little clearer?

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

That's weird. Looks like I repeated myself! Whoops. Anyway, yes I use a base rate of 8grams plus titration for my potassium mixes. As you are using unused oil, the base rate is all you need. I wasn't very clear before, I mix my meth brew prior for about 5 mins, enough to dissolve the catalyst. Then this is pumped into the oil and mixed for 1 hour. I feel that 1 hour is overkill in my mixer, but it works, so I don't bother to change.

Is is that a little clearer?

thanks heaps for your help,i really appreciate it , yeah it is a bit clearer.I did another new 1 litre test this arvo with 8g and 200ml of meth as you suggested, i pre mixed the methoxide for about 10 mins then poured it in while it was mixing.

i switched off the mixer for 1 minute and took a sample of bio at the 30min mark let it settle for 10 mins in a beaker of water that was at 20 degrees ,then i did a 27/3 test and let it settle for 30min it had a drop of oil fallout about 3mm in diameter on, so i ran the mix for another hour and took another sample and it still had fallout of about 1mm diameter.so i ran it for a bit longer.

will do 27/3 test tomorrow and a wash test (shake em up test ) and see what happens.

i must be doing something wrong if you reckon a liter sample should only take 10 mins , at the moment im mixing with a power drill set up on a drill stand in a hdpe( 2) 2 litre milk container.

thanks in advance

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

Welcome to the forum. It is always good to get new blood on the forum.

What temperature is your reaction at?
You should aim for 50C
10C increase / drop in reaction temp causes a halving / doubling of reaction time.

Regards,
Tony

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

Welcome to the forum. It is always good to get new blood on the forum.

What temperature is your reaction at?
You should aim for 50C
10C increase / drop in reaction temp causes a halving / doubling of reaction time.

Regards,
Tony

thanks tony
i pre heat to 55c and hold between 55c and 60c
cheers jasen

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

That is good, I react at 50C for 30 min and it gives good results.
I settle for a few weeks, then decant into 60L drums so I can take them to my wife's garage for refueling.
Mu pickup for the pump has a spacer to prevent picking up anything closer than 50mm from the bottom of the drum.
I take the (almost) empty drums, swill them around a bit to pick up any byproduct which may have dropped out of the biodiesel, then pour it into a 20L drum to settle further. I drain off any byproduct after a week then return the remaining bio to my refueling drums.

Regards,
Tony

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

regarding the 1 litre test batch , what would be the reason for passing the 27/3 test and failing the wash test , i still get a slight white interface layer between the bio and water after settling for 30min after a shake em up test
regards jasen

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

thanks heaps for your help,i really appreciate it , yeah it is a bit clearer.I did another new 1 litre test this arvo with 8g and 200ml of meth as you suggested, i pre mixed the methoxide for about 10 mins then poured it in while it was mixing.

i switched off the mixer for 1 minute and took a sample of bio at the 30min mark let it settle for 10 mins in a beaker of water that was at 20 degrees ,then i did a 27/3 test and let it settle for 30min it had a drop of oil fallout about 3mm in diameter on, so i ran the mix for another hour and took another sample and it still had fallout of about 1mm diameter.so i ran it for a bit longer.

will do 27/3 test tomorrow and a wash test (shake em up test ) and see what happens.

i must be doing something wrong if you reckon a liter sample should only take 10 mins , at the moment im mixing with a power drill set up on a drill stand in a hdpe( 2) 2 litre milk container.

thanks in advance

failed both test

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

The 27/3 test tests for unconverted oil. The wash test checks for soaps. I don't think there is any correlation between these tests.
Soaps drop out more rapidly when the methanol is removed (eg long term settling / bubble wash, etc)
There is a technique of adding 10%(?) of reaction volume after processing, and stirring it thru, trapping the methanol in the water to assist in byproduct settling and removal. I have never tried this.

Tony

[jasen Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jasen]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

The 27/3 test tests for unconverted oil. The wash test checks for soaps. I don't think there is any correlation between these tests.
Soaps drop out more rapidly when the methanol is removed (eg long term settling / bubble wash, etc)
There is a technique of adding 10%(?) of reaction volume after processing, and stirring it thru, trapping the methanol in the water to assist in byproduct settling and removal. I have never tried this.

Tony

Thanks tony ,i agree , the problem is i started out following the journey to forever website - only because it was the first one i found and it looked comprehensive and i was new to homebrewing , they mention that anything more than a paper thin white layer between the bio and water may be caused by an incomplete they also say that it may be from excess soap ,so ive probably been confused ,Ive since read that some of the info on the JTF website is out of date.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

failed both test

I think what a lot of people overlook is the type of fuel pump / injection system they will be running it in. When I first started out I had my knickers in a knot about conversion percentages etc. then I realised that plenty of people run straight vege oil in the same motor as mine. So I reasoned that as long as I got somewhere close to the mark (therefor my viscosity wasn't too adversely affected) conversion percentage isn't an issue. I haven't done a 27/3 test in a very long time. granted that's probably not best practice, but recent inspection of injectors after about 40k since my last replacement tells me that my fuel is atomising nicely and there is no carbon build up at all.

I am a bit slack and have never bothered with a soap test. I let my fuel age for as long as I can. it would be on average I guess about 3 months old before burning.

My approach doesn't suit everyone, but it seems to suit low technology engines / pumps like mine.

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: 1 litre test batch with new oil issues

Jasen, try this site

It has lots of stuff that may be of help.