Bio-LPG???

[76sonny Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 76sonny]

hi all.
been pondering on this idea for a while now.
i read the added benefits of Dino-LPG, such as cleaner burning of fuel, 20% more fuel economy, longer engine life etc for converting Diesel vehicle to Diesel-LPG.
i understand LPG acts as an aid (catalyst) to help diesel burn better in diesel-LPG as opposed to running solely on LPG in Petrol-LPG vehicles.
so the question is if 100bio is used with LPG, is it possible that we can have lesser problems of cold start and motor life, etc etc.
i might be willing to be the one to experiment that. but financial constraints wont allow that until at least 6 months.

[76sonny Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 76sonny]

Re: Bio-LPG???

sorry, the idea was to ask my learned friends for their valuable feedbacks and insights into this please!!!!

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Bio-LPG???

is it possible that we can have lesser problems of cold start and motor life, etc etc.

Are you having problems with these at the moment?

[pro-logic Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pro-logic]

Re: Bio-LPG???

Technically speaking it should have no effect what so ever on your ability to start the car.

The LPG is most often injected through the air intake into the car to have minimal impact on car modifications. The LPG is then mixed well by the turbo (although some people don't like pre-turbo LPG injection for some reason) and only it mixes with the diesel or bio when it enters the cylinder for the reaction.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong that the slow start problems with bio are due to the viscosity of the fuel, so a fuel heater would probably be a better idea.

Another thing to look into is the cost/benefit analysis. If you brew your own B100, you can probably make it in the 30-50c range per l. This is below the price of LPG.

Given that you use 1L of LPG for every 4L of diesel, you would in fact be paying more for running a bio-lgp car then you would for just a bio-car.

It only starts to be economical when the price of what you put in your tank is the same, or higher than LPG.

[76sonny Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 76sonny]

Re: Bio-LPG???

thanx Pro-logic
the idea of LPG is to have a more eco-friendly and reliable car. i thought if bio has cold start problems, maybe LPG could help fire her up in colder weathers. further the bio better burnt, thus longevity and cleaner motor.
my BT50 is as cheap to run as an LPG falcon and more powerful. am just chasing an utopian fantasy.
i am not a mechanic or engineer. just a thought came to my mind and i thought i might get some expert advise off you gents (and ladies).

[76sonny Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close 76sonny]

Re: Bio-LPG???

thanx Chris
i am doing my homework b4 actually carrying our the changes in the vehicle.
cold start was a problem with bio, that is what i gather from the forums that i have read so far.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Bio-LPG???

(although some people don't like pre-turbo LPG injection for some reason)

I did this on a toyota corona, I had about 3L of air/lpg sitting in the pipe between the turbo and intake manifold.
When it backfired, and all that gas blew up.... Ever seen flames comming out of the front of your car, while doing 110k/hr? Well after the seccond time I carried a fire extingisher and change of undies....

I think environmental benifits of LPG would only apply if using fossil diesel, otherwise you are using more fossil fuel than before.

[sean musso Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close sean musso]

Re: Bio-LPG???

correct me if i,m wrong but lpg needs a spark to ignite so this probably wont help with cold starts a fuel heater is a much better idea and good glowplugs we had a 2006 navara once the fuel heater was installed its made a hell of a difference starting on icy cold mornings

[pro-logic Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pro-logic]

Re: Bio-LPG???

Ever seen flames comming out of the front of your car, while doing 110k/hr? Well after the seccond time I carried a fire extingisher and change of undies....

That certainly is a very odd occurrence... usually the lpg/air mixture that is extremely lean... lean to the point of it not actually being ignitable by a match... maybe your LPG system was running a bit rich... none the less... i would love to see that...

Yeah, the point of LPG is to deliver a cleaner and more complete burs to the fuel... at B50 however, you might see benefits in terms of money saved... in terms of environmental impact... who knows.

[murf Member Find all posts View Profile Close murf]

Re: Bio-LPG???

I am looking into it too

I want more HP in the old 89 4.2D GQ Patrol

the new system I am looking into that is not available yet

null

big claims in HP increase, yet to see

Cheers Murf

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Bio-LPG???

the diesel gas systems WILL NOT help with cold starting. The reason is that the LPG isn't used until throttle inputs are recieved and at opperating temperatures. This is to avoid pre-ignition and other nasties. IMHO its a waste of time money and thought. Sure if you pay $1.80 a litre for diesel it might be a godsend but in reality it ain't that flash. the system isn't running at idle, the system ISN'T a either or system you need both diesel AND LPG so once again no benifit to bio. and the 20% claim is rubbish its closer to 10% and then you have to add your LPG usage onto that.
the govt loves it though.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Bio-LPG???

I am looking at setting up an LPG system on my own car for performance purposes. As I run SVO, I am wary of overfuelling the engine which could result in excessive fuel being left in the cylinders and causing coking.
By using LPG, the extra fuel would only be emitted at times of peak power demand and could be tuned more readily than I am able to ajust the IP.
By putting my foot flat to the floor and admitting some gas while cranking the engine, I beleive the engine would be easier to start from cold or on oil if I forget to purge before shutdown.

I am considering the idea of injecting some petrol while cranking - for the same purpose. Using LPG would be cheaper, for the fuel cost - say 200ml/start - 30 cents for petrol, 15 cents for LPG. However the cost of an LPG system just for starting would be prohibitive.
The performance increase from adding an LPG system for full throttle use would be slight and I imagine less than increasing the max' fuel on the IP.
2 reasons IMO for adding LPG to a diesel.
1. To take advantage of the Gov't subsidy. (BTW it is interesting that the price of LPG conversion doubled when the Gov't brought in the subsidy.)
2. To take advantage of the low price of LPG compared to distillate. Use 20% less distillate but replacing that 20% with a similar qty of LPG at half the cost, example: Travelling 1000km, using 100 litres of distillate at $2/litre cost $200. Travelling 1000km using 80 litres of distillate at $2/litre and 20 litres LPG at $1 cost $180 = 10% cost saving.
Now if we are using Bio at say, $1/litre (notional production cost) - no cost saving.
Using Bio at say 50c/litre (materials cost) - significant cost increase.
Using WVO at 0c/litre (discounting time and effort) - huge cost increase.
IMO opinion LPG with distillate is marginal at best.
If more performance is needed/desired, regardless of which fuel is being used, a turbo or supercharger + intercooler is the way to go - to add more air rather than just more and/or different fuel.

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Bio-LPG???

I am considering the idea of injecting some petrol while cranking - for the same purpose. Using LPG would be cheaper.

I very much doubt you will get a start using LPG.

I remember reading on LPG fumigation, that it requires something like at least 16% of the total fuel charge to be diesel to initate combustion.
If this is true then LPG in a cold engine may well do nothing at all.

[DutchAussie Member Find all posts View Profile Close DutchAussie]

Re: Bio-LPG???

I disagree.
Aromatic fuels are much easier to ignite than non aromatic oils.
It is the heat of compression that will Ignite Diesel or bio and they rely on being finely sprayed so the compression heat will cause them to Burn. An aromatic vapor fuel such as LPG would readily mix with the available air and light off easily. I have shoved an unlit gas blowtorch down the inlet of diesel engines when cranking them and it definately makes them start when they refused without it.

Dave, what makes you say that LPG is an aromatic fuel?
LPG or Autogas consists of Propane and Butane, both of which are non-aromatic hydrocarbons.

[murf Member Find all posts View Profile Close murf]

Re: Bio-LPG???

Ok after further thoughts and deductions I agree it would be a waste of money for LPG for power increase even if the claims are correct for the new system coming onto the market

so now I look at $4000 for a turbo kit

and then I can put that aux tank in as well so another 60lt or so extra of Bio I can carry

cheers Murf