Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Collective Grey (and those amongst us who still have hair),

I have had a quick look on the forum here and it doesnt seem like there has been a lot of recent chat about DPF's.

I think it is going to become the next hurdle in bio use, as our fleet of 'old reliables' gets even older.

Had a search on the net and there is a few university studies which seem to sprout that use of bio in DPF's actually improves the long term performance and longevity of the DPF, through lower catalyst temperatures, yet it appears to me that the bio community is still largely risk averse when it comes to use of DPF's and Bio.

quite keen to spark some healthy discussion on the subject that is restricted to proper logical and researchable context rather than "oh my old man had one of those and it failed on bio" - they fail on dino too.

I understand there are two types - the type that adds the fuel post combustion in the cylinder at the start of the exhaust stroke via a selected injector, and the type that adds fuel to the exhaust line prior to the DPF.

would like to know what everyone thinks about :

1. leaving DPF in tact and just using bio normally
2. removing DPF physically from exhaust line and disabling computer inputs
3. leaving DPF in tact and blending bio with dino (the enemy)
4. or not buying a car with a DPF period.

look forward to some great responses!

[smithw Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithw]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

I understand that there are DPF delete kits you can get, (which is just a pipe and a software change) as even dino diesel can be a problem with DPF. Im sure the kits will become more common place, in the years to come as more information about the technology comes available.

[maverick_sr71 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close maverick_sr71]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Just keep buying cars that don't have a DPF and if you just have to have the brand/model that only has a DPF then us a low percentage blend.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

I thought this topic would have snagged a few more responses than the above, not to say that Smith and Maverick's input is not valid, quite the opposite.

Is there anyone currently running B100, B50 or B20 in a car that has a DPF? and if so for how long?

I think Matt ran it in a Pug for a while, but thats all I have heard about.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Yes 4 years and about 60K km, but its has no DPF, just cheap shitty seals.

[maverick_sr71 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close maverick_sr71]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

If you look at the "which cars will run on bio" sticky you'll find DPF cars are not in that mix. I'd suggest from that you can assume the answer of the collective grey.
I'm just about to buy a new VW Passat and it wont be seeing any bio, that's a clear decision I've made in buying the vehicle.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

I am seriousely considering a chrysler 300crd, which like Maverick, I dont beleive i would run on Bio either. Reason being that they are that fuel efficient, it wouldnt be worth the effort.

I still think there may be room for consideration of Bio in a DPF fitted vehicle, especially in the next few years, where they may become commonplace in vehicles where they arent already.

The other side of the coin is that manufacturers may see them as being more trouble than they are worth, and drop them, as the warrantee repairs on blocked / failed DPF's pile up.

[SUZUDDIS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SUZUDDIS]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Cade

A good topic that will get both sides of the coin. It is my understanding that the pajero from 2010 has had the DPF removed. This I have read from a number of sites but largely from the Internet so must be true .

I ran my 2008 grand vitara on B50 and it seemed to like it. No known problems and the service agent didn't complain about it until one day a fuel tanker hit it. Hmmmmm ??? Didn't think about that until just now.

I then replaced it with a 2011 Grand vitara and had problems with the DPF straight away but no Bio in it then as I wanted to get through the first service. I lost interest in that car straight away and so did Suzuki for that matter.
I don't know where to guide people from my experiences but I dear say it will be buyer beware and do lots of research because a DPF can cost upwards of 6k to replace. I like the thought of removal and software delete.
Having the post injection still active shouldn't pose a problem if the engine oil is changed every 5 to 7 thousand km's but this then defeats low running costs.

I can see Cade cruising in a big black shiny car though.

My two cents

Michael

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

OK.

So thus far, everyone is avoiding them like the plague, but no one has provided a real reason to avoid them other than cost to replace. I understand that the need for replacement is not necessarily bio induced either, but its a problem that is perceived to exist regardless of fuel type used.

By the lack of answers, it appears largely that the group as a whole does not understand them (this includes me as I know bugger all about them - however I am sure there are people reading this that do).

I may have to do some investigating elsewhere and come back with some info if the forum is interested.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Cade,
We would appreciate it if you can research this information.
If you feel that it would be of benefit, we can "sticky" the post so that it remains visible well into the future.

Regards,
Tony

[marty666 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close marty666]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

DPF filters are required to gain a euro 5 emmsions level. 1st removing then means your vehicle is in breach of its ADR requirements 2nd from experiance Holden captiva in series 1 was not capible by the manufactures standard to run bio but the series 2 is capible of running B10 in owners hand book and on fuel flap. DPF filters are the way that every manufature is going to have to go to once euro 5 is made manditory.

[250downunder Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 250downunder]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Have a look here:- Biodiesel Compatibility - Engine Biodiesel Fuel Compatibility - Popular Mechanics
Excellent explanation of DPF operation.

[maverick_sr71 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close maverick_sr71]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

There was a full and detailed explaination some time ago on why the DPF is a no go for bio. It talked about the burning of soot in the DPF and how bio can't do what's needed, thus the DPF blocks.

Have a search, a topic covered in deatail previously.

[250downunder Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 250downunder]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

A most useful contribution! And we wonder why the forum is suffering from inactivity of late!!

There was a full and detailed explaination some time ago on why the DPF is a no go for bio. It talked about the burning of soot in the DPF and how bio can't do what's needed, thus the DPF blocks.

Have a search, a topic covered in deatail previously.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

Ok, I have pretty busy of late with work, so I haven't had a whole heap of time to dedicate, but here's what I have found out thus far. It is by no means conclusive and I am still putting a few things together. I have basically just read a few different articles on the subject.

Ray (250 downunder) recently referred us to a webpage by Popular Mechanics. I have read the page written by Dave Hubbard (I havent found out his qualifications / experience etc yet), and summarise it as below:

www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/4311498

1. Essentially Dave claims that B100 is not acceptable as a fuel in post injection type DPF units as apparently the post power stroke injected (and therefore unburnt) fuel that clings to the side of the cylinder wall can make it past the compression and oil rings (this makes sense as the compression rings wont be forced against the cylinder wall on the exhaust stroke) and potentially dilutes the engine oil. Dave explains it as being a molecular makeup problem as to why the fuel clings, but I would have thought a thinner fuel like dino diesel would have also made it past the rings? Maybe some of the chemists in the forum can chime in here.


2. It is therefore suggested that maintenance frequency is increased to replace the diluted oil, and that the oil level is closely monitored for increase in level.

So apart from the Dave's comment that Bio is not suitable for use in a post injection DPF system, he is correct if the owner is not willing to make allowances for use of B100. Personally, I am not sure that Dave's overall comment is comprehensively captured in his reasoning. I wouldl like to hear more from him. I will continue to search on Dave's thoughts.

Next:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...nce_2011_p.pdf

General Motorsfunded a study which looked into the use of DPF and Bio diesel in varying blends.

The major point to be taken from the study was that the soot created by Bio use carried and absorbed more water than that created by dino diesel use, which thereby resulted in corrosion of the DPF at certain low points in the system, where water would accumulate (under some conditions).

As a personal note, I found the data and text quite disjointed in the page that I read and would like to see the whole report so I could capture context. I will keep looking on that one. There may be more said concering Bio use not mentioned in this text.

Next:

www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/39606.pdf

The National Renewable Energy Council performed a study into the use of B100 in DPF models with passive regeneration (no injection cycles, just relying on increased exhaust temperature to burn off the soot).

It basically says that the soot created by B100 use can be oxidised (read burnt) at a lower temperature in the DPF than the soot created by Dino use, and it therfore actually extends the life of a passively generated DPF, as it remains cleaner due to a smaller soot load. It also stands to reason that your regeneration cycles (a purposeful highway drive at speed to increase exhaust temperature over a certain time period) can be shorter and further apart.

END NOTE:

I find these 3 articles quite interesting as none of them discount the other and all make sense from a practicle standpoint. I am going to continue reading and will get back to the forum when I have something further to add, but it appears that it you would like to run Bio in an actively regenerated DPF, then you need to drop your oil more reguarly, and closely monitor your oil level. Furthermore, it appears that high exhaust temperatures are good for your system, as not only will it regenerate your DPF on B100 quicker, it may also reduce the level of moisture in your soot, and thereby reduce potential for corrosion. So highway miles towing a camper it is.

Nothing I have read so far inidicates that Bio use in a DPF fitted car is not manageable. I am not taking anything away from the fact that DPF's in general will be a heartache though. They are a costly replacement item when they fail.

I have written this pretty quickly, so please let me know if I have made ny mistakes in my summaries (which I am sure you all will!!)