Blending gasoline with biodiesel

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Considering the "glycerine" layer is miscible in petrol and petrol is miscible in biodiesel, why would the petrol force the glycerine out of the biodiesel?

Jeffrey, it is clear you do not know what you are talking about. There is already enough misinformation about producing biodiesel on the internet. Please, Please, Please stop adding to it

So, can you prove that glycerine is miscible in petrol? Or, are you just here to perpetuate misinformation about biodiesel on the internet?

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

So, can you prove that glycerine is miscible in petrol?

Yes, I did a test. I mixed equal parts of glycerine and petrol and they stayed mixed together. They did not seperate from each other

[BushBill]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,

it seems reasonable to conclude

Not when I have just stated that something else happens from observation. Let me repeat...

" You could see the dropout on the bottom of the bucket. He siphoned off the biodiesel from the top into a clean bucket, yet this new bucket continued to have a dropout. This was over a period of weeks and the biodiesel had been mixed with a degree of petrol and petro-diesel."

It appeared the variation in temperature was a major influence on stuff dropping out. In my mates case it was probably glyc and water, yet it took time, weeks.

The only reason I add petrol to biodiesel is to lower viscosity, and my opinion is that if you get a dropout something is wrong with either the biodiesel, petrol or containers you are using. If you get a dropout to me it is obvious some more testing is needed to see what is wrong, making an assumption that it will be OK in 24 hours if settled, seems a tad naive to me.

Bill

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey

I am going to add my results later but today I drained off all the water from my previous batch. 150 litres.
To put merit where its due I did get some settlement from my batch. But I know where it came from and know why it was there. What I don't know is why it was still there .

I bubble dry and because I get good results from the previous batch examples I'll continue to do so.

This batch is 150 litres and had been too aggressively washed so it caused an emulsion. I grabbed a 20 litre oil wvo drum and piped into this. This drum wasn't clean and had some lumps in the bottom. I'm not proud of this but it was going to be dumped anyway.

After adding vinegar to my emulsion and watching it quickly settle out I decided to pour the majority of this drum back into my processor. Chunks and all. This batch has since been water washed and bubble dried.

This afternoon I added 1 litre of petrol into the batch and left it to do its stuff. I know my processor is clean because I clean it after every batch.
Giving it several hours to sit , I then drained approx 500 millilitres off.
I have a poly cone bottom processor for any that don't know what I'm using.

When I take some photos later this evening they will show lumps of what I can only describe as food particles. Why this didn't wash out with the water wash I don't know but it would have filtered out when I pipe off to my storage.

Jeffrey , I can only conclude that you got ripped off when you purchased your fuel if your pipe work is clean. Most of us know our systems in side out and back to front. I'll leave that to you.

Michael

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey...This afternoon I added 1 litre of petrol into the batch and left it to do its stuff. I know my processor is clean because I clean it after every batch.
Giving it several hours to sit , I then drained approx 500 millilitres off.
I have a poly cone bottom processor for any that don't know what I'm using.

When I take some photos later this evening they will show lumps of what I can only describe as food particles. Why this didn't wash out with the water wash I don't know but it would have filtered out when I pipe off to my storage.

Jeffrey , I can only conclude that you got ripped off when you purchased your fuel if your pipe work is clean. Most of us know our systems in side out and back to front. I'll leave that to you.

Michael

The "lumps" that you are interpreting as food particles seem unlikely to be food particles in a batch of biodiesel that you had already processed. It might be the same thing that I observed, which were gelatinous masses floating in my blend of biodiesel and petrol. I suspect that they are glycerin precipitates that formed from improperly made biodiesel. Which could have been the same thing that Bill observed above; however, I do not see why there would be continued precipitation due to declining temperature, if it was just glycerine. Maybe in Bill's case, and your's and mine, it was un-reacted animal fat, or hydrogenated oils, because animal fat and hydrogenated oils will not dissolve into petroleum distillates. So, when petrol is added to biodiesel that has some un-reacted animal fat and hydrogenated oils in it, then they will precipitate out of solution.

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

It might be the same thing that I observed, which were gelatinous masses floating in my blend of biodiesel and petrol.

I do not remember you mentioning gelatinous masses floating on the top.
It is very unlikely to be glycerine, glycerine sinks

I suspect that they are glycerin precipitates that formed from improperly made biodiesel.

Glycerine is the byproduct of making biodiesel. It is produced no mater what the quality of the biodiesel

because animal fat and hydrogenated oils will not dissolve into petroleum distillates. So, when petrol is added to biodiesel that has some un-reacted animal fat and hydrogenated oils in it, then they will precipitate out of solution.

When you say animal fat do you mean just a chunk of fat from the animal like you would cook or do you mean the oil that has been rendered from fat.
You are the first person who I know of to say that hydrogenated oils were not miscible in petroleum products. Are you sure of that?
Can you describe the tests you performed to come to this conclussion?

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Sorry for taking so long to post the pictures. I'm not going to post video because I have things to get done.
I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol although I now loath the smell of the raw fuel. hopefully it won't affect the burnt smell too much.

anyway here goes. as you can see there is some water content in the bottom. this is the leftovers from the batch. the very last drops of water that dropped out of the batch when the petrol was added. I don't know what they are and don't care really as like I said previously they would have been filtered out in my transfer. time for me to move back to the Bio forum.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

...I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol....

Thank-you, SUZUDDIS, your photos and report support my premise that blending a small amount of petrol with biodiesel will cause any contaminants in that biodiesel to precipitate out; therefore it is wise to do your blending before the fuel tank.

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Personalized critiques have no place in this forum.

Referring to each others backgrounds in a sarcastic way is uncalled for, and will result in infractions that include a time out or complete banning.

Contain yourselves to discussing the technical issues at hand; or be man enough to let it go.


Tim - moderator

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

The Experiment
1. I poured recently produced room temperature glycerine to a level of 10mm into a glass jar and marked on the jar the level of the glycerine.
2. I then poured a 10%- 15% blend of petrol and washed biodiesel into the jar to bring the level of the liquid in the jar up to to the 60mm mark
3. I then shook the jar very hard to thoroughly mix the contents of the jar.
4. I sat the jar down and observed.

Results
After the first day a layer of glycerine had formed.
At the end of the second day there has been no noticeable increase in the level the glycerine has reached.
The level of the glycerine is 8mm.
That means that about 20% of the original glycerine is still in the biodiesel.
The biodiesel is fairly clear but not sparkling clear.
I will continue to observe this test over the next few weeks and report back.

Intermediate Conclusion
It does seem that the petrol is acting like a co-solvent in the same way methonal acts like a co solvent and is actually prevention the glycerine from settling out

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Like I was saying before. the particles of crap that dropped out appear to be food from the dirty drum that was used to pour into after I processed my batch.

so this was after I processed and before I did my second wash. I can only guess that the petrol forced the oil out of the food particles and then let them settle in the water.

Michael

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear. So, all we need now is a third person to conduct the experiment and report their results.

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear.[/LEFT]

Hi Jeffrey,
in the intrest of arriving at the correct answer, I will point out that the precipitate in your video is extremely unlikely to be glycerine that has just precipitated out of the biodiesel.
Glycerine just does not precepitate out in lumps and flakes as shown in your video. If it were glycerine there would be no visible precipitate travelling through the biodiesel and it will not collect together in lumps and flakes as it apparently has in the video.

Mu guess is that Michael's explanation of what occurred in his case is correct.

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

JSB<

I am due to make another batch of BIO on the weekend - the method i use ensures that i have low conversion BIO on the first pass (i.e. there is some unreacted oil within the BIO) I will put some of this aside.

I will also put aside some from this same batch once it is totally reacted and before i dry it and perform some of these tests so you can have a 3rd set of results.

I have got to say though that i am leaning towards Tilly's position on this one.

And just to clarify also - i am a BIO maker, WVO blender and a straight WVO user all rolled into one. !!

My suburban currently runs on BIO for startup, and then WVO for running, my Surf runs on a blend in its startup tank and WVO in its main tank

Craig

[Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel



Ok, I thought I would have a crack at this.

first photo - measured 200ml of really grubby unwashed bio dregs from the bottom of my mixer.

second photo - added 20ml of fresh clean unleaded petrol (AKA gasoline for the yanks)

third photo - 3/27 test underway on left, grubby bio and petrol mix (shaken up big time) in the middle and bee-yute-iful ready to go (but still unwashed) bio straight from my fuel bowser on the right.

note the differnece in colour between my finished product and the bio/ petrol mix. lots of glycerine here. probably got caustic and soaps in it too.

The other photos will be in my next post, as I wasnt able to add any more in this post.