Blending gasoline with biodiesel

[bet2000]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

In China, more and more methanol is added into gasoline, or even 100% used as car fuel called M100(with a special ECU to switch ejection of fuel volumes). M15, M30, M50, M85.

Biodiesel sometimes is added as content of additive, which may help to vapor lock.

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Update
This experiment is now in it's fifth day.
The level of the glycerine is still at the 8mm mark which is only about 80% of the glycerine originally placed in the jar.
The biodiesel is clear.
This indicates that about 20% of the glycerine is still disolved in the petrol/biodiesel mix

There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

The Experiment
1. I poured recently produced room temperature glycerine to a level of 10mm into a glass jar and marked on the jar the level of the glycerine.
2. I then poured a 10%- 15% blend of petrol and washed biodiesel into the jar to bring the level of the liquid in the jar up to to the 60mm mark
3. I then shook the jar very hard to thoroughly mix the contents of the jar.
4. I sat the jar down and observed.

Results
After the first day a layer of glycerine had formed.
At the end of the second day there has been no noticeable increase in the level the glycerine has reached.
The level of the glycerine is 8mm.
That means that about 20% of the original glycerine is still in the biodiesel.
The biodiesel is fairly clear but not sparkling clear.
I will continue to observe this test over the next few weeks and report back.

Intermediate Conclusion
It does seem that the petrol is acting like a co-solvent in the same way methonal acts like a co solvent and is actually prevention the glycerine from settling out

[Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hang on a tick, didnt you say a while back that if uou blend in your tank all the drop out occurs in the tank? Fuel sloshes around like crazy in a tank?? And 24 hours is ample for anything with a higher SG (such as glycerine) to fall out. I am still having trouble with your basic statements. Can you please shed some light on why you cant agitate a blend in a jar with petrol, but its ok in a cars fuel tank? This is doing my head in. I think I will stick to my proven method of settling over months before use. This thread is all yours Jeffery. I'm out.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

3rd photo - bio / petrol sample with the beejeesus shaken out of it and left for 1 hour. looking pretty precipitate free there I would say.

OK, thanks, Captaincademan, for trying. However, do NOT agitate petrol blends with anything, and wait at least 24hrs for precipitates to form. If you agitate a blend it could take days to weeks for the precipitates to settle out.

[Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel



OK, having trouble with internet connection, so here goes for 4th time.

first photo here - 3/27 test drop out. no surprises, as I only use 3.5 grams of caustic plus titration value.

2nd photo - 0.3ml of drop out. this equates to a 90% conversion.

3rd photo - bio / petrol sample with the beejeesus shaken out of it and left for 1 hour. looking pretty precipitate free there I would say.

4th photo - same sample from different angle.

Seeing the bio I used was from the bottom of my mixer full of glycerine (you can see from the colour) probably soaps and caustic too, I would expect some drop out now anyway. nothing. will see what the next couple of days bring.

by the way - the sample has not been filtered at all. not once. not even the oil through a stocking before I brewed it. there should be food particles galore in there.

the 3/27 test, the colour and my experience would tell me that my sample is from a typical brew.

Sorry Jeffery, but its not looking good for 10:1 bio to petrol as helping to drop out any contaminants. This bio sample is about as grubby a bio sample you could get, and there is no drop out.

[Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel



Ok, I thought I would have a crack at this.

first photo - measured 200ml of really grubby unwashed bio dregs from the bottom of my mixer.

second photo - added 20ml of fresh clean unleaded petrol (AKA gasoline for the yanks)

third photo - 3/27 test underway on left, grubby bio and petrol mix (shaken up big time) in the middle and bee-yute-iful ready to go (but still unwashed) bio straight from my fuel bowser on the right.

note the differnece in colour between my finished product and the bio/ petrol mix. lots of glycerine here. probably got caustic and soaps in it too.

The other photos will be in my next post, as I wasnt able to add any more in this post.

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

JSB<

I am due to make another batch of BIO on the weekend - the method i use ensures that i have low conversion BIO on the first pass (i.e. there is some unreacted oil within the BIO) I will put some of this aside.

I will also put aside some from this same batch once it is totally reacted and before i dry it and perform some of these tests so you can have a 3rd set of results.

I have got to say though that i am leaning towards Tilly's position on this one.

And just to clarify also - i am a BIO maker, WVO blender and a straight WVO user all rolled into one. !!

My suburban currently runs on BIO for startup, and then WVO for running, my Surf runs on a blend in its startup tank and WVO in its main tank

Craig

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear.[/LEFT]

Hi Jeffrey,
in the intrest of arriving at the correct answer, I will point out that the precipitate in your video is extremely unlikely to be glycerine that has just precipitated out of the biodiesel.
Glycerine just does not precepitate out in lumps and flakes as shown in your video. If it were glycerine there would be no visible precipitate travelling through the biodiesel and it will not collect together in lumps and flakes as it apparently has in the video.

Mu guess is that Michael's explanation of what occurred in his case is correct.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear. So, all we need now is a third person to conduct the experiment and report their results.

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Like I was saying before. the particles of crap that dropped out appear to be food from the dirty drum that was used to pour into after I processed my batch.

so this was after I processed and before I did my second wash. I can only guess that the petrol forced the oil out of the food particles and then let them settle in the water.

Michael

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

The Experiment
1. I poured recently produced room temperature glycerine to a level of 10mm into a glass jar and marked on the jar the level of the glycerine.
2. I then poured a 10%- 15% blend of petrol and washed biodiesel into the jar to bring the level of the liquid in the jar up to to the 60mm mark
3. I then shook the jar very hard to thoroughly mix the contents of the jar.
4. I sat the jar down and observed.

Results
After the first day a layer of glycerine had formed.
At the end of the second day there has been no noticeable increase in the level the glycerine has reached.
The level of the glycerine is 8mm.
That means that about 20% of the original glycerine is still in the biodiesel.
The biodiesel is fairly clear but not sparkling clear.
I will continue to observe this test over the next few weeks and report back.

Intermediate Conclusion
It does seem that the petrol is acting like a co-solvent in the same way methonal acts like a co solvent and is actually prevention the glycerine from settling out

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Personalized critiques have no place in this forum.

Referring to each others backgrounds in a sarcastic way is uncalled for, and will result in infractions that include a time out or complete banning.

Contain yourselves to discussing the technical issues at hand; or be man enough to let it go.


Tim - moderator

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

...I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol....

Thank-you, SUZUDDIS, your photos and report support my premise that blending a small amount of petrol with biodiesel will cause any contaminants in that biodiesel to precipitate out; therefore it is wise to do your blending before the fuel tank.

[SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Sorry for taking so long to post the pictures. I'm not going to post video because I have things to get done.
I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol although I now loath the smell of the raw fuel. hopefully it won't affect the burnt smell too much.

anyway here goes. as you can see there is some water content in the bottom. this is the leftovers from the batch. the very last drops of water that dropped out of the batch when the petrol was added. I don't know what they are and don't care really as like I said previously they would have been filtered out in my transfer. time for me to move back to the Bio forum.

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

It might be the same thing that I observed, which were gelatinous masses floating in my blend of biodiesel and petrol.

I do not remember you mentioning gelatinous masses floating on the top.
It is very unlikely to be glycerine, glycerine sinks

I suspect that they are glycerin precipitates that formed from improperly made biodiesel.

Glycerine is the byproduct of making biodiesel. It is produced no mater what the quality of the biodiesel

because animal fat and hydrogenated oils will not dissolve into petroleum distillates. So, when petrol is added to biodiesel that has some un-reacted animal fat and hydrogenated oils in it, then they will precipitate out of solution.

When you say animal fat do you mean just a chunk of fat from the animal like you would cook or do you mean the oil that has been rendered from fat.
You are the first person who I know of to say that hydrogenated oils were not miscible in petroleum products. Are you sure of that?
Can you describe the tests you performed to come to this conclussion?