Blending question - probably for DJ

[craigcurtin]

Guys,

I have a Toyota Surf - 3.0 Litre Turbo.

I had Fitian do the converion on it and he installed a twin coil Heat Exchanger (one of the round units) - due to space issues under the bonnet. Oil flow from the tank through the first coil, through the Fleetguard filter and then back to the 2nd coil then into the IP.

I run on a blend all the time (single tank).

I have been experimenting with different blends and still do not have something i am happy with.

My oil is cold filtered to 1 micron, settled for 3+ months in a sealed IBC and passes the HPT with flying colours.

I have been trying mixtures of ULP and Kero/Heating Oil to try to come up with something that works.

My issue is that i am getting heaps of black smoke at idle and in low revs - ia also getting a very uneven idle (almost like one of the cylinders is missing). When running at anything above 2000 revs everything is good. This is even after the engine is warmed up after 15 minutes running.

I have confirmed it is the mixture by running on straight Dino after draining the tank and within about 15 minutes everything comes good again - idling is fine, no black smoke.

If i do a 50/50 blend of Dino/WVO there is a bit of a "lumpy" idle but very little smoke.

Fitian examined the injectors when he did the conversion and said they were all OK, he also put through a diesel injector cleaner.

I have done an engine oil change and flush using CEM and this has made no difference.

Obviously blending is not a science but more of an art.

As the weather has gotten warmer i have gradually reduced the amount of ULP and am down to 5% now, and 20% Kero - could i be seeing some form of vapour locks at low idle or no load as the fuel is spending longer being heated ?

Is it possible for Kero to go "off" and lose its Cetane levels ?

I am gradually going to try reducing the amount of Dino and see what that comes down to before i get too much black smoke. I will then look at substituting the Kero for Dino and see what happens.

Any other ideas ?

Craig

[neil]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Have I missed something.

Why do you blend all the time if you have had a conversion done.
I thought the idea of a conversion was so you can run on SVO and just
use dino for start up and finishing.

Do others also blend if they have a conversion.

Maybe I have some how misread the post and someone or Dave can fill me in
on the blend/conversion issue.
Thank
Neil.

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Thanks for the reply DJ. Looks like i will try an Injector place and see what they have to say - or maybe just source a new set of injectors for $300.

As to why heating rather than just blending ? Easier on the engine/pump. Initially it was going to be a two tank conversion but Fitian decided that there was not enough room under the bonnet to do a decent job, plus most of my driving was 15KM trips hence the purge/heatup time was too long. I was always planning on running a blend in the startup tank (as i have 800+ litres of Kero (and access to a heap more for free), so it seemed simplest to just run the whole lot on a blend.

Craig

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Thanks DJ.

Yep my thoughts exactly with the Kero. I have access to a heap of old people all of whom are decommissioning their old home "oil" heaters (which all run on Kero)

I have about 1000 litres stored at the moment and another 1000 litres waiting to be collected.

Will let you know if i ever get too much !!

Between my turk burner for startup fuel and my Lister generator that is currently in transit i think i might be OK though !!

Will let you know what happens with the Injectors

Craig

[Nuddy]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Guys,

I have a Toyota Surf - 3.0 Litre Turbo.

I had Fitian do the converion on it and he installed a twin coil Heat Exchanger (one of the round units) - due to space issues under the bonnet. Oil flow from the tank through the first coil, through the Fleetguard filter and then back to the 2nd coil then into the IP.

I run on a blend all the time (single tank).

I have been experimenting with different blends and still do not have something i am happy with.

My oil is cold filtered to 1 micron, settled for 3+ months in a sealed IBC and passes the HPT with flying colours.

I have been trying mixtures of ULP and Kero/Heating Oil to try to come up with something that works.

My issue is that i am getting heaps of black smoke at idle and in low revs - ia also getting a very uneven idle (almost like one of the cylinders is missing). When running at anything above 2000 revs everything is good. This is even after the engine is warmed up after 15 minutes running.

I have confirmed it is the mixture by running on straight Dino after draining the tank and within about 15 minutes everything comes good again - idling is fine, no black smoke.

If i do a 50/50 blend of Dino/WVO there is a bit of a "lumpy" idle but very little smoke.

Fitian examined the injectors when he did the conversion and said they were all OK, he also put through a diesel injector cleaner.

I have done an engine oil change and flush using CEM and this has made no difference.

Obviously blending is not a science but more of an art.

As the weather has gotten warmer i have gradually reduced the amount of ULP and am down to 5% now, and 20% Kero - could i be seeing some form of vapour locks at low idle or no load as the fuel is spending longer being heated ?

Is it possible for Kero to go "off" and lose its Cetane levels ?

I am gradually going to try reducing the amount of Dino and see what that comes down to before i get too much black smoke. I will then look at substituting the Kero for Dino and see what happens.

Any other ideas ?

Craig

Since your kero is free I would try 50/50 kero/wvo. It should start on that year round but if you have trouble in winter go up to 75% kero. drop the ULP as it costs. 75% kero should give a very low viscosity, probably less than diesel.

If it starts and runs perfectly on straight diesel then I would expect it to do the same on 50/50 kero/wvo.

If I had access to free kero I would use 50/50 kero/wvo for my startup/purge tank.

I have a ULP (in IP) phobia but no problem with kero, would happily run 95% kero with 5% wvo in any diesel if I needed fuel that thin.

[COYVIC7]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

[quote=Dave Jones;34053]I don't think it is anything to do with your blend at all.

My thoughts are that you have issues with your injectors or IP that are just showing up when you blend.
The black smoke on blend would make me tend to think the injectors are not spraying correctly and the slightly thicker fuel is not being burned properly.

Hi craig i had a similar kind of experience though i didn't jump at the injectors or the pump. I went straight to all my filters and strainers and checked them and found that in my 1996 hilux has a strainer in the tank (not to say you have one there) and it was blocked to buggery creating poor injection pressure and black smoke since i corrected this there hasn't been any more issues.
check them first they could save you $$$

Regards coy

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Thanks Coy. Will definitely check it out - i know Fitian did a full clean out of the tank when he did the conversion, but i will check on the Surf forum to see if there is an Internal filter of some kind. I wouldn't really expect these symptoms though - more fuel starvation symptoms (especially at high speed - which i am definitely not experiencing - but worth a go as you say.

DJ - positive this stuff is Kero for Home heating - the US have their HHO (basically dyed diesel) - i am not aware of Australia ever having had much of this in use (but could be wrong) - but am sure that this stuff is Kero.

Craig

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

I was under the impression they ran on non road taxed Diesel rather than Kero?

As far as I have been able to determine, neither Kero or home heating oil have Road Tax on them, Road Tax is not collected in Australia.

The question is, is excise applied to one or both of them. I believe it is applied to both.

Regards,
Tony

[Johnnojack]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

I have had and used a few hundred litres of heating oil. (still have a bit left and put 20l in my tank today with 20l of bio). As far as I know it looks like diesel smells like diesel runs like diesel and has a higher viscosity than kero. Kero smells different looks different, I used some (kero from a bottle) to clean grease off and it will dry up and wash away easily with a water from a hose. Diesel or heating oil won't do that. Kero? I doubt I could run my engine on it 100% with no problems However this is Adelaide and assumptions that things in Sydney are the same have been shown to be wrong before on this forum.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Hello Craig, I know this thread is a bit dated, but I found your symptoms of smoke with a 50/50 blend of WVO and kerosene a mystery. I lived in Toowoomba in the 60s and then oil heaters were common, and they were indeed burning home heating oil (HHO), which is diesel and not kerosene. So, I am with Johnnojack and Tony From West Oz on this, the heating oil that you have access to for free is most probably diesel not kerosene, which is fine, but blending it at 50/50 with WVO could make your fuel mix so viscous that it could smoke a lot and possibly coke your valves and injectors.

Also, I agree with you, smoke is not typical of a plugged fuel strainer, but as you said, fuel starving is. But, that does not mean that you do not have a hidden fuel strainer that might cause you grief at some other time. It would be good to hear back from you as to what the resolution was of your problem smoke bomb problems.

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Hey Guys,

Just an update on this one which gets stranger and stranger.

I was going to remove the EGR pipe from this car so basically stripped out the Turbo crossover and the Air Inlet (then found we could not get the EGR pipe out with the engine still in the car (but thats another story !!), anyway after doing all this the problem went away - still same blend etc - the stuff i am blending with is definitely Kero not diesel.

So the problem has been absent now for about 1 month - nothing else has changed - still using the kero from the same 200 litre barrel, and the same oil from the same IBC.

Just this week though the car started to idle a little bit rough again - no black smoke at all and only a small amount of white smoke.

I will do some more messing around with the blend mixture and see if there is a sweet spot.

I am due to get the injectors looked at and possibly replaced at the end of the month - we will see if that makes a difference also.

Craig

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Thanks for getting back with us. Working out a blend can often times be complicated by intermittent mechanical problems, which it sounds you may have. White smoke for a few minutes after starting with a blend is common, and considered normal.

[Nuddy]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would revive this old one.
I am about to get another vehicle - trading the LPG falcon ute on a Patrol GU 4.2 turbo intercooled diesel (indirect injection). I am thinking to not convert the 2005 Patrol, except for adding a FPHE and a Walbro pusher pump.
I think I want to run it on a blend of mainly WVO. I don't have access to kero or jet fuel. ULP is relatively cheap (compared to kero) and I have read on this forum somewhere that blending with ULP may cause the suspended water in the WVO to drop out of suspension. I am wondering how high a percentage of ULP I can use without having trouble. I think DJ has said that he uses 5% without trouble but am concerned that a higher percentage may result in vapourisation, particularly if I have a FPHE. However I am not sure it will start on a 5% blend. I have found that I can start my 2.8 turbo on 100% WVO (forgot to purge) by spraying a little metho (ethanol) into the intake manifold (unscrew the blow-off valve and spray in then hit the starter) so perhaps I can set up a remote control sprayer for cold starts on the new patrol and run a 5% blend or less?

Thoughts forum members please.

Also planning to make Bio but haven't even got to drying my WVO yet, which must be highest priority but maybe blending will do the drying for me.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Hello Nuddy, yes, there are quite a few people who successfully blend VO with various solvents to run a diesel engine on. However, very few of them blend and heat the fuel line. Most of the successful anecdotes I have read of both blending and heating, the individuals generally do not add more than 5% unleaded to their VO-based fuel blend.

I cannot recall where you are, maybe southern California, if so it might still be a bit cold there, so it might be hard to startup with so little unleaded added to your fuel blend. I would suggest that you might find life burning VO a lot easier if you either do straight BD, or straight two-tank, or straight blending, but do not mix the methods, or you are likely to have trouble.

If you could install a thermostat on your FPHE that keeps the heat below 120F, then you might be able to both blend and heat.

[tbird650]

Re: Blending question - probably for DJ

Vapourizing does need to be managed. Obviuosly conventional looping is out. Re-starting can be a minor irritation. The residual motor heat vapourizes the fuel in the injector lines and IP, so extra cranking can be required to bleed out the air.
The rotary IP is set up to self bleed as you drive, so a modest amount of bubbles is immediately manageable.
Ambient temp variations will require modified blend ratio to suit the season and for optimum ecconomic efficiency (less bought fuel).
I ran a 20% ulp blend for quite some time in the early days of veggy-ing but nowadays I have a clear nylon return line visible as I drive, restart, idle at traffic lights, etc. Really lets you know whats going on!
Right now, if I had more supply, I would be running low% ULP blend being that it's summer.
Given my current supply shortage, I'm running 40%dino blend & no heat exchanger. That gives cold starting slightly difficult but very manageable.