Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

[Nuddy]

Back of the envelope,
Assuming ULP and dino both $1.20/litre.
Say my average trip is 50km.
Say I get 14 L/100km.
If I blend at 10% ULP to 90% WVO I use 7 litres on my 50 km trip thus 0.7 litres ULP which costs 84 cents.
If I use dino for startup/purge and warm up for 3 km and purge for 2 km then on my 50 km trip I do 5 km on dino and use 0.7 litres, costing 84 cents.
Actually ULP is usually cheaper than dino so blending is cheaper than 2 tank.
If I can get hold of bio for startup then 2 tank will be cheaper, or using say a 20% blend for startup then 2 tank will be cheaper.
Currently I have 1 of each.
A 2.8 turbo diesel on 2 tank and a 4.2 turbo diesel on 10% blend.
I will convert the 4.2 when I start making bio for startup.

[froggo]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Hi Nuddy,

it's intresting to do costing as you have done for your particular vehicles use.

That's the thing with us vegers nobody has the same combination of usage and vehicle choice.

Where I live everything is only 2km away from my house [small country town]. I never turn on the veg tank unless I'm traveling out of town and then it's always a +50km trip.

As I've said in my HJ45 conversion thread I had no need for a super quick purge system because wvo would only be used on longer trips.

To reduce the cost of running around town on shorter trips I started to blend my start up tank fuel using it as a single tank system.

This has easily halved the cost of my start up fuel using a 50% wvo blend during spring/summer.

Last winter I started to blend 25% wvo and up to 20% ULP but did not have enough time to experiment before spring and the warmer temps.

This winter I hope to find a suitable blend for my troopy in cold temps that gives me the cost savings and normal engine operation.

After reading your info on your start up fuel costs I thought whats stopping you from blending your start up fuel in a two tank system.

You can get the benefits of both single tank and duel tank systems.

God bless froggo.

[E Tolle]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Hi, just wondering if you ULP blenders are worried about detonation ????

I mistakedly put 12bucks of ULP in m sub tank once before I realised it was petrol and then topped up the rest with diesel............suffice it to say, it went like crap. I noticed a marked lake of performance due to detonation also (incorrect flame front or timing) as I was switching back and forward between tanks and you really could notice the difference. It was running rougher and it knocked at least 10 - 15 K's off my top speed.

Do you find the extra viscosity of VO stops detonation ??

I know that some long haul truckies add the high octain stuff to a tank of Diesel....but at what percentage I don't know.

[froggo]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Hi everyone,

the truckies that I know used some ULP in their diesel because they believe it cleaned the injectors.

There are also the truckies that believe the ULP increases power, gives them another gear as I've heard some explain it.

I thought it sounded logical until I started on the wvo thing and learn't heaps more about octane, cetane and diesels

Some of the american vegies use a diesel boost product in their blends. I not sure what it's supposed to do except cost extra $. I suppose with the cold temps they have in winter it may help.

God bless froggo.

[froggo]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Hi Dave,

my post was more about the old wives tales that you hear, then when you look into it and experiment you start to find the real story.

I'm convinced that some ULP in a wvo blend is a good thing for starting otherwise I would not be doing it myself.

The learning curve starts when you discover what ULP quantities can be good or bad.

In my vehicle I don't think there is any extra boost from the ULP. I think it all comes back to the way the vehicle is tuned.

I don't think the ULP would help clean the injectors otherwise they would not need to clean injectors in petrol vehicles.

God bless froggo

[E Tolle]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Some more on blending;
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9751014871/m/9361066682

What do you blend with? - Topic Powered by Eve For Enterprise

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9751014871

It is also naughty BTW according to the ATO

[E Tolle]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Just doing some more reading and came across these posts;
They seem on the button to me, probably more so from a heated blend perspective.

BKHosken wrote

The reason for blending with RUG is threefold. #1, RUG is thinner than diesel so it will thin the mix more per gallon added than diesel. 10% RUG will thin as much as 15-20% DIESEL, so it's cheaper. #2, RUG will help dissolve waxes and fats a little better than diesel or kero. #3. diesel contains paraffins and (very rarely) will drop these waxes out of suspension when mixed with WVO. Seems like it rarly happens, but when it does there's a bunch of white snot flakes floating around in your mix clogging up everything. Bad.

That said, I DO use kero instead of RUG, but that's because I get the kero for free, almost, and I have a heated system so I don't want to boil the RUG (vapor lock)

You can't say 80%WVO 20% RUG will work in a diesel engine. It works in my Benz (VERY fuel tolerant) here in central FL (nice and warm most of the time) the way I drive (hard and longer trips frequently). Any of the variables can change and that may mean your engine will NOT work well on a blend.

I mix well before I put it in the tank, I added a FPHE and injector line heaters to help warm up the blend. If you use RUG, you can't get the blend much over 130-140F before you may start bioling the RUG which will give you bubbles in your fuel and make it run badly or stop altogether.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/228107067/inc/1

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

I'm having good success with 10% ULP in my WVO, AND purging at every engine shut down.

My aim is to protect my injectors from gumming up. I am not concerned for my IP as it is an inline IP, so I only run on diesel for a while on the first start of the day. Then after a minute or so I see the EGT temps rise to 300°C plus and switch to the blend.

Now Perth has dropped below 30°C and heading to autumn, I have turned on my 30 plate FPHE again and found no problem with the ULP boiling off, or any detonation problems. This is contrary to my previous experience which may have been caused by mixing ULP direct in the tank. Now I mix in a 70 litre drum, then pump into the tank

In the future, I hope to develop a system that will mix the ULP in through a venturi at the required rate to ensure a good mix.

So in answer to the thread topic - I blend AND I run a two tank system. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Tim

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Thanks for the heads up Dave. Not sure I know the Burn Vege forum. If you could paste a link to that discussion, that'd be helpful.

My concept is naturally based on my own setup.
I use a gear pump that is running the same as the 240v motor speed and is pumping about 30 lpm of WVO out of drums that are sitting above the pump. It goes at a fair clip and is pretty noisy. It'd feel much safer if it was running slower to lessen risks of burst pipes.

The suction on this setup is pretty strong and is enough to suck in the black poly pipe I use. I know this stuff isn't very strong, but my point is that there is a strong suction - spare suction if you like.

My idea is to place a drum of ULP above the pump, as high as practical, and use a tap at the bottom to regulate the flow of the ULP out the bottom. The ULP line would be tee'd into the suction side of the pump.

My theory, dreamt up whilst hiking one day and not based on any provable theoretical analysis, is that given I have strong suction on my gear pump, and given the low viscosity of the ULP, that it will be easily sucked into the flow of WVO and mixed accordingly.

I also have yet to instal a fuel flow meter, but anticipate I will be able to judge how much ULP is being mixed in with each 10 litres of WVO, or 100 litres etc, to get my ratio about right.

Currently I have an option to draw from the drums that are higher than the pump, or from a drum that is lower than the pump. I know that when I am pumping from the lower drum, if I open a valve from the higher drums, the fuel flows from the higher, and stops from the lower. I believe this is basic physics and the principles of fluid following the line of least resistance.

I figure the ULP will be a lesser resistance, and the trick will simply be controlling the flow through a needle valve perhaps if fine enough control cannot be gained by using a gate valve, ball valve etc etc.


The benefits of this system would be to not have to premix a known quantity of ULP into a known quantity of WVO, then mix it to ensure proper even spread of the ULP. Julien from France alerted me to the problems they have of inadequate mixing over there and the lengths they have to go to to ensure proper mixing and avoid pump failures common in Europe.

It lessens the amount of handling of the volatile smelly stuff, and it would be pretty cool to take an idea to a working solution.

If you care to post the link, I can check out why others who have no doubt thought of this and figured it won't work.

Tim

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Tim,

FWIW i do the following in my mixing

1) Pump 120 litres of oil into my hot water heat tank
2) heat, circulate and dry as required
3) Change around some valves (never have too many valves !!) and then suck in the required amount of Kero (i have this stored in 200 litre drums)
4) Change around some more valves and suck in the ULP - i have this stored in a 60 litre drum

5) In my hot water tank (it is a 250 litre) i have an aluminum rod that i insert when adding the various elements - i have made gradients on the side that represent each 20 litres.

I mix all of this (by an ALDI $99 pump) for an hour or so whilst the oil is still hot (around 60C) (but no element on) and then let it settle. After settling i usually drain off about 5 litres from the bottom of the tank just in case any water has dropped out (highly unlikely)

Then pump into the car as required (more valves!!)

Craig

[Nuddy]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

I pour 1 litre of ULP into a measuring jug then into an empty 20 litre cubee. Then another litre into the jug then cubee. Then I pump 18 litres of filtered and settled WVO from IBC through 1 micron cartridge into the cubee. It is quite a stream of WVO and mixes nicely with the ULP already in the cubee.
Then I pump from the cubee, through the 1 micron again, into the vehicle tank. The pump further mixes the blend. Then the sloshing around in the tank keeps it mixed. My original sample 10% blend in in a jar and has been siting still for a few weeks - no sign of separation.

[Tim-HJ61]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

My aim is to avoid the smelly process of hand measuring out small quantities of ULP into storage drums, and instead meter it directly into stream of vege pumping into the car fuel tank, or into cubies for longer term storage.

I would like to avoid an extra process that some are using of putting ULP and vege into a container where it is mixed, then putting it into the fuel tanks.

The concept has a benefit of ensuring excellent blending.

Whether it works or not in practice is another matter.

Tim

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

Tim,

Thats why i do it my way - make a large batch and no need to be exact (within a litre or so), no need to hand measure the ULP etc, I pump direct from my hot water heater tank into the car - so no messing around with cubees etc

The ALDI pump i am using will easily pump through a 3/4" hose 30 metres long with a head of about 4 metres and still fill my 65 litre tank in about 3 minutes.

The $99 investment i made in this pump has already paid for itself in T-Shirts saved from splatter from cubee pouring into the car - i used to use a 20 litre petrol drum with nozzle and still always managed to get some on me, my hands, my pants, my shirt etc - it was the part of the whole process that i dreaded the most !

Now my 7 year old helps me fill the car !!

Craig

[Nuddy]

Re: Blending vs 2 tank - fuel cost

I too use the Aldi pump for all my oil transfer. To fill the vehicle tank I use it to pump through the 1 micron cartridge. 3/4" hose pump to filter, 1/2" hose into car. I like to pump from cubees so I know how much I am putting in - helps prevent overflow.
Tim,
Your proposed system sounds good but not for me - I am too particular about accuracy - too much petrol and poss' vapourisation - not enough and the engine may not start.
Hope it works out for you.