Blend Power

[craigcurtin]

Re: Blend Power

Dave,

I agree with you on the power output also. In my surf i notice a definite difference between running on a blend with and without ULP in it. You are right also in relation to starting being a lot easier.

Recently i had my surf at the mechanics to change the timing belt and install a new water pump at the same time. I mentioned to him about shortly changing the injectors as the car has just clicked over for 100,000KMs. He told me not to bother just keep adding ULP on a regular basis - apparently a lot of the old timers used to do this to their diesels as an injector flush - he thought it was something to do with burning quicker and hotter (and hence closer to the end of the Injector) than straight diesel.

I am of a similar opinion that blending ULP would advance the timing of the engine (closer to what Dino would run at), which should counteract the retardation that the slower burn front from WVO is introducing.

Craig

[tbird650]

Re: Blend Power

I think the reason ULP works is because it sprays better from the injector nozzles. It sprays a better mist, much more to the engines' liking. Firstly because it's a thinner blend than straight.... and secondly because it has a certain cleaning action, keeping the tips free from build up. Being more power, it also translates to better mileage/economy given the same speed/work done.
Adding ULP does reduce the flash point to a minus figure. This may give it a better readiness to ignite, giving a similar effect to timing advance.

[Alga]

Re: Blend Power

He told me not to bother just keep adding ULP on a regular basis - apparently a lot of the old timers used to do this to their diesels as an injector flush - he thought it was something to do with burning quicker and hotter (and hence closer to the end of the Injector) than straight diesel.

From what I understand, petrol was used originally to reduce gel points and freezing in diesel vehicles operating in cold climates before they had additives. When I was researching blends years ago, I read some information from the AAD (Australian Antarctic Division) and their experience with blends. If I can find it again I will post it. But from memory the years they used petrol blends on engines which ran 24/7, they had multiple breakdowns and needed to replace some engines. The best blend they found was kerosene/ jet fuel and diesel Now their fuels come with anti gel, anti freeze and anti bacterial agents.

When I was a kid, my grandfather was a farmer/sleeper cutter and they used many things to start the mill, even stuffing burning paper and rags into various places to get heat into it to fire. I was pretty young so don't remember much about it other than the inevitable big bang, smoke and noise when it fired up. To clean injectors they used lots of different things, including brake fluid and later ATF, which is what I use today very successfully. Water injection and petrol may aid de-coking as well, but I'm not sure about glazing.

Theoretically they say you can put up to 30% petrol in diesel without mechanical trouble, however I've tried this during my blending days in a 2.5 datsun 720 and don't recommend it at all. It was fine at idle or under light load, but on the road and pulling, the noise was terrible and performance dropped considerably. I found over 10% ULP blend created knocking, air locks and ULP evaporation when the fuel was heated by the engine or a HE in summer. From my experience, ULP blending may work in warm climates, but in cold ones it creates fat build ups in lines and filters. You can overcome this by cooking your oil to remove bound water and thin the oil, or flushing with BD. We had snow last week and 283 mm of rain for June.

In summer I use straight VO and in winter blend it with 10% BD, or dino if I'm away. This way I get no knocking, fat build-up or gelling of oils. ULP lacks lubricious ability, constantly introducing a harsh scouring compound into a system not designed for it, must have detrimental effects over time, particularly in IP's and injectors. For injectors, ATF has all the ingredients needed to clean the injection system, ULP can't lubricate and doesn't contain cleansing, anti coking or anti glazing agents, which ATF has.

A few years ago I stored sealed samples of different blends of VO/ULP/BD/dino and SVO in an open but covered box, to see how they acted over time. They are still there and the only one that gelled was SVO, all others were fine, but the ULP blend has formed strings of fat in it and when shaken they glob together before settling back to strings. That's why I don't use ULP for a blending agent in this climate and personally wouldn't use it anywhere except in an emergency.

[PeterAC]

Re: Blend Power

Alga, that was a good read! Thankyou . Even though the ULP does not have lubricity properties of ATF, would the VEG make up for this anyway? I am fasinated by the uses of ATF (I have a simple mind I guess) and with your boiling of WVO oil and the change in its properties. I have approached a couple of indian resturants but they say they have little oil left over in the cooking. Sorry to get off track. This is an interesting thread. It is more from a point of view how through history the bushy (the innovative bloke through isolation) uses just about anything to maximise their uses wherever they can be used. We are continually locked into thinking of one use of a product by commercial sellers when really they have a multitude. Thats why I like reading what old timers use to do and how people like Dave and Alga string different pieces of info together. Sorry way off track.

Peter<><

[Rich]

Re: Blend Power

G'day Lads,

Being a two tank system, converted in October last year, I am noticing the power reduction already. My fuel consumption on the diesel side is excessive if you ask me. I pretty much watch the diesel fuel level in the sub tank drop with each time I drive the 80 series. Heaps of smoke out the tail pipe much to the disgust of those behind me although they might be hungry for take away by the time they get home. According to posts some time back and I know I am entering dangerous terrain here..... could it be by passing in the pollack valve????? She is genuine. If not I may have fuel dribbling through my injectors. For the 1st time about an hour ago I added roughly 10 percent 98 octane unleaed to my oil tank and will see what that does. What does interest me is the ATF - automatic transmission fluid - right??? To run a few tanks through would be enough I am guessing to clean things up and the critical question to you old school boys is What ratio of ATF to veg oil?

Regards,

Rich........................................

[Alga]

Re: Blend Power

G'day Peter, veg would compensate for the inclusion of ULP but don't see that as the problem. Not being a technical person, I go by trial, error, experience and a form of lateral logic which goes like this. You can run a standard diesel on pure dino, BD, kero, jet fuel, VO, ATF, engine oil and other forms of oil. It won't run on petrol or Metho, so to me they're alien fuels prone to problems. They use additives designed for ignition engines, not combustion which have much different internal operating conditions tolerances and limits, compression is but one.

My knowledge of using various fuels goes back to my youth, which at the time still included many horse drawn, steam driven forms of transport and stationary engines. I started using veg in 1977, a bloke I was working with blended it with his diesel. At the time it was about 23 cents a lt and veggie oil was about 18 cents for 4 lts at the shop. We used it in our farms inter dozer, generator, Lister pump and Perkins powered truck. It progressed from there as we had access to oil from the pubs I worked in or managed and as diesel prices escalated, I started using it straight.

When I retired and came across this forum, I tried many techniques of others, that's when I tried petrol blends, against my oily mates advice. It's the same with making BD, I never titrate and use the same formula every time with only one failure in many years, a batch I made when it was snowing to keep the shed warm. Both attempts failed, so I never make BD in winter because of condensation and rapidly changing temps here. The only changes to my technique is changing from NAOH to KOH

Most of my fuel system problems occurred when using ULP blends during winter conditions, since dumping blends every thing's been smooth sailing. I had little trouble with ULP blends in summer, except some faltering on hot days. I don't see ATF as a blend, just a fuel system cleaner. My mate (Oily) down the road (a mechanical engineer) puts anything in his stationary engines, yet refuses to use petrol.
You never get much oil from Indian restaurants, our biggest one only uses about 10lt a fortnight. They use mustard and other oils which react different to commercial oils and are used at much higher temps than home cookers or junk food vendors.

Dave, re-read my post, you've completely misinterpreted it. I was putting forward my experience of blends, not advocating using anything. The AAD example was to show others how it's been approached in the past, the 30% ULP is a maximum and petrol as a blend was for convenience of lowering freeze points and reduce the number of different fuels they needed to ship down there.

As an experimenter, I tried it and certainly am not recommending it as you appear to suggest. They still blend dino for winter, we notice a big difference when we get to Aus and run out of starter fuel.

The same with samples, a fridge or freezer gives misleading results as they have constant temperatures, moisture content and atmosphere. Outside in the real world and not a closeted city environment, vehicles are subjected to constantly changing temps and conditions. Unlike a fridge, putting samples outside is similar to what's experienced in fuel tanks. The difference being light and agitation, hence the reason they have a cover and shaken regularly. The samples are in glass, plastic and food quality coated steel containers. I'm doing this to test the longevity of stored blends and oil as I have used oil in original drums over 6 years old.
Nowhere in my post do I advocate using ATF as a blend.

Rich, my methods have changed over the last year with experimentation. Now I put 1 lt into my HJ60 (500000+klms) 2.5 lt starter tank in 4 lots at about 4800 klms. At 5000 klms, start the engine, drain the starter tank until it's just about empty, put in 1 lt ATF. When it's almost gone fill up with BD/dino and run it under load for a few minutes. I've found this suits the 2H engine on oil, but in the Triton (12000klms) which runs on BD now, I use 1 lt straight into an almost empty starter tank. Using Veg, I also flush my engine every 5000 klms.

[Nuddy]

Re: Blend Power

I take comfort from the fact that Benz recommend the use of petrol/dino as a thinner in their diesel engines. Also agree with PeterAC and others about the lubricity issue. I add a little veg to my diesel to compensate for the loss of sulfur (lubricant).
I am back to a 10% blend petrol/WVO in my 2005 Nissan Patrol TD42TDi after a 10,000 km trip on very expensive dino (with a little veg added for lube).
I would prefer to use kero or jet fuel for blending it I could get it at a reasonable price. It used to be about half the price of petrol, Backmin the days when we used it for home heating and the PMG used it in their delivery vehicles petrol engines (they had to start on petrol - early 2 tank system). Now it is 2 or 3 times the price of petrol, even with the excise on petrol!
What an outrageous rip-off.
Similarly back then dino was half the price of petrol. People used diesel engines then, not so much for the better mpg but more for the fuel costing half as much as petrol.
I think mst of us use WVO primarily to save money (at the huge cost in time and effort) and thus we can't justify the exorbitant price of kero - it would be cheaper to use dino. That leaves us to blend with petrol, which works out cheaper as we use less of it to achieve the desired viscosity and the bonus is that in some applications we get a power increase, as DJ points out.I don't use it for the power increase, my modified (3" exhaust, upped boost, dyno tuned) TD42TDi has plenty of power.

[Rich]

Re: Blend Power

G'day lads,

As mentioned in this post a few days ago, I tried a blend for the 1st time in my vegie oil. I stated earlier that it was around 10% ULP in my oil tank. Looking at it now I would be comfortable to say it was far less which gives me even more reason for concern. The 6 litres of 98 octane I put in brought my 90 litre fuel level to full again, but with other than expected or desirable results. At 2600 rpm and up she coughs and farts to no end????? What's doing here????? I am guessing that the blend fraternity out there do not agitate the ULP with oil prior to the tank, but have the mixing done in their oil tanks in transit, so I am guessing that dimisses one theory? Is the ULP interfacing between the oil and sitting on the bottom of my tank, is the 98 octane too high, are my lines copping a bit of a clean? Any guesses because I at this stage am very reluctant to do it again. Things I did notice was the oil did definitely become more viscous as my negative pressure on the vac guage which is just before the IP nearly dropped by half, so I was happy there. The longer I drove ( successive trips - not huge trips) on that tank of oil the less apparent the cough and splutter and lastly my temp guage reading my coolant temp, became higher. In winter I sit at around 60 to 65 deg where as after this tank mix she got up around the 75 to 80 deg. I am thinking this can't be good as my chamber temps are higher as a result. I am fast becoming slightly paranoid but know you old school, been there done that gurus might have an explanation. I have since topped up the vegie tank with 40 odd litres of oil, with no scary journeys as a result. Vac pressure went up though.

Regards,

Rich.............................................

[froggo]

Re: Blend Power

Hi Rich,

don't blend in vehicle, now you know what happens. The two fuels are diff viscocity and don't blend well without some sort of mixing.

Tank baffles prevent thorough mixing in vehicle.

Always blend in containers outside vehicle and mix well.

Once blended wvo and ulp does not seem to seperate. My old test batches never have.

God bless froggo.

[Rich]

Re: Blend Power

Thanks fellas,

I won't give up that easy given the feedback. Next fill will be through my 25 litre drums with a little less than 10% of the lowest octane ULP, after a good agitation. Some thing so simple I would have never considered. As far as the rise in temp of the coolant, nothing has changed, nothing is different apart from the addition of the ULP. The ambient temperatures I even considered and if you look back a little over a week ago and given the times I drive around work and home in my part of the world, it was a reasonable constant. I will monitor on my next ULP fill.

Thanks again,

Rich...........................................

[spock505]

Re: Blend Power

I run a 300TD on a 95% blend without any issues although I am aware of the svo that I use is soya - not good so I tend to air on the side of caution and put 50/50 dino in for a good run.

In terms of mixing I shake vigorously in a 20 litre cubie but the best mixing is done in the tank - on tick over the pump will pull and return around 2/3 litres per minute so assuming you have a euro tank of 62 litres and driving the car normally you can expect to 'empty' the tank back into itself every 10/20 mins or so depending on how full your tank is -

One other thing I wanted to mention with older MB's and the varied results centres around timing, I believe this accounts for the varied results users experience when using veg blended or otherwise -

Theres only one company that i am aware of that advances timing as part of their single tank conversions - consider that MB accept around 1/2 degrees of chain stretch per 100k which equates to a fair lag on IP timing -

[froggo]

Re: Blend Power

Hi spock505,

that's a good point about the fuel return line.

The only prob for some is older Toyota's don't have return to tank. They use a looped back to ip system.

I like to err on the side of caution and always blend outside the vehicle.

It's easy to do once organised and stops the side effects of running your diesel on unblended ulp as Rich seems to have discovered.

God bless, froggo.

[Nuddy]

Re: Blend Power

Since we got back from our expensive trip on dino I have been running the GU on a 10% ulp blend. So far it has been starting just as well on blend as it did on dino and the power at least as good, possibly better. I am starting to wonder if it is worth the trouble of doing a conversion.
I do have 2 tanks, a helton HE, a spare CAV and have ordered some Omar valves so I will probably do the conversion - no rush - have already fitted the pusher pump - I wonder if that is helping the starting??
I will fit the helton as I am sure that even on blend it will get through the filter better when warm. Meanwhile there is plenty of work to do on the GQ.
Then there is that bio reactor to set up so that I can use up the stock of HMP fat in my carport.
So far I am very happy with blending and if I didn't have all the gear I wouldn't bother with the conversion.

[snapper]

Re: Blend Power

HELLO NUDDY and fellow members,i am interested i how you run your 4.2 patrol is it a two tank system or blends of wvo all the time.Thanks

[froggo]

Re: Blend Power

Hi DJ & NUDDY,

I never use wvo around town and from the start that was my intent.

That's why I did not care about getting the purge times down to the minimum on my system, it's just not important on a longer trip.

It's the reason behind me using a blend in my diesel tank for startup, short trips and around town.

I still think a 2 tank system is the way to go to have the best of both worlds.

God bless froggo.