Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

[pwibbip Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pwibbip]

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum. It has been a great help so far in setting up my system. I've decided to process WVO with a centrifuge as per this link http://www.dieselcraft.com/WVOCentrifuges.php. The suppliers of this unit sell a gear pump for almost $1000 which is apparently needed. The centrifuge works best at 90psi with performance dropping off significantly at 70psi. I don't want to pay that sort of money.

Any suggestions for an alternative pump that could happily exert these sorts of pressures for a couple of hours at a time?

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

I suggest that you look at other filtration methods. $1000 for a pump and probably about the same for their centrifuge.
Just how much oil do you need to filter each day?

Gravity is free and it just takes time and space.
If you have plenty of oil, accumulate it in 200L or 1000L containers, using the oil from the top to feed a simple filtration system. Several people use multiple 200L drums on their side, adding the oil to the bottom of the first drum, and allowing the cleanest oil to flow from the top of that drum to the bottom of the next. Only the longest settled, cleanest oil, comes out of the last drum.
I would prefer to filter the oil before refuelling, and would gravity cold filter thru a 1 or 5 micron bag filter. The oil would pass thru the filter and there would be little or no filtrate in the filter, showing just how effective the upflow design is.

Although it takes time and uses under-cover space, it is free and totally reliable. Running costs are negligible, unlike running a pump and centrifuge for hours on end.
Search on the forum for "upflow settling" - hint - use Google to search in this site.

If you must use a pumped filtration system, ensure that the pump (gear pump) has a pressure relief valve which operates at a lower pressure than the filter rupture pressure. As the filter blocks up, the pressure increases and could cause the filter to rupture, sending unfiltered oil into the clean oil tank.
There are large cartridge filters available which could be used.

Alternatively, use a header tank, pump the oil to it and use the header tank to feed multiple bag filters, each with a plastic plate, just larger than the mouth of the filter, with a hose connection inserted into a hole in the plate. Because the plate is larger than the filter bag, it blocks any oil overflow, only allowing a little seepage, which can be dealt with in other ways.


I hope this is useful,
Tony

[pwibbip Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pwibbip]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

I want to filter up to 200L a week once I get my second vehicle setup.

Thanks for the tip re the upflow system, I had researched that one but it seemed to rely on a fair bit of settling time. Does the input of dirty oil to the bottom of the system cause unsettling of the whole tank each time?

I am only guessing how many filter bags I will use per week. If I used 50, 25, 5 mic filters would I change 2 of those each week?? I am guessing by the price of filter bags if I went through a couple a week that the centrifuge system would pay for itself in less than a year.

It also looks like a much cleaner change over process than disconnecting filter bags.

Would love to hear the thoughts and ideas of those more experienced in the processes of filtering.

[pwibbip Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pwibbip]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

Have you seen this link?

Dieselcraft Centrifuge for WVO

Looks like this guy solved the problem by getting an old power steering pump coupled to an electric motor.... I note he ended up getting a replacement after a while.

Soound like he did his homework on the system

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

I'm with Tony on the advantages of a settling based system. I filter through a coarse Termimesh tray, then Bunnings bags which catch all the fats. After a few days that oil starts the process of going through the settling tanks. Once it has worked through 2x200 litre drums, it is stored in a 1000 litre bulky and I draw from the top.

I use about 60 litres a week through this process and it is pumped by a gear pump driven by a 3/4 HP 240v electric motor.

To put more through, just add a couple more settling drums so the oil is in the process for a couple of weeks at least. Now and again I will filter my oil in the bulky through 5 micron filters and they don't collect any debris at all, indicating the settling process has been highly effective. I don't use any filter bags, only the 5 micron cartridge filters, and Bunnings bags which last for months and need cleaning out each month or so. If my wife is away, they get put through the washing machine ......

If you are keen on a centrifuge, remember you need to heat the oil to 60°C I believe, which adds energy costs to your processing unless you can centrifuge straight from the fryers.

A suitable pump could be made out of a power steering pump as they operate at 1000 psi. As Tony says, a pressure relief system is needed to ensure you don't blow things up - it would get messy at these pressures.

Another option might be a pump from a coffee making machine that is high pressure and low volume, and built for high temperature operation. Remember that any pump you choose MUST be designed to work with oil as the significant viscosity differences between water/diesel etc and vege oil may have a detrimental affect on performance.

I also understand CF is rather a slow process, and unless you are supremely confident of the setup, it would need watching all the time. The oil needs several passes through the CF too - from what I've read on their website or YouTube videos.

Whatever you decide, you will have to have a process to filter out the chunky bits and act as some kind of primary storage/settling to empty your oil drums into. You'll also have to have sufficient storage to keep up with your needs of 200 lpw. It would seem to me that a 1000 litre bulky could easily end up being part of your system anyway. All you need to add is a couple of other settling tanks prior to this, and you have your system at minimal cost.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

I have been using the same 2 filter bags for a long time (is it 2 0r 3, mabye 4 years so far).
I only settle my oil in a 200L drum, pumping the ouil in at the bottom and pumping off from near the top. I pump in 60 litres at a time and allow to settle for a few days before pumping out 20 - 30 litres per day. When there is room for another 60, I pump it in.

Now this is not the ideal and I am a bit slack in making up the upflow system at home, but my filter bags have lasted a LONG time (I use a liner in them to help remove any fats and filtrate befor the oil goes thr the bag).
If I had another 200L drum and built the frame to make an Upflow, I would be doing much better, not needing to wait between pumping out the settled oil.

Regards,
Tony

[pwibbip Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pwibbip]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

[QUOTE=Tim-HJ61;44401] Now and again I will filter my oil in the bulky through 5 micron filters and they don't collect any debris at all, indicating the settling process has been highly effective. I don't use any filter bags, only the 5 micron cartridge filters, and Bunnings bags which last for months and need cleaning out each month or so. If my wife is away, they get put through the washing machine ......

The upflow systems look like they have to be "closed" to ensure uplift rather than overflow- how do you incorporate the bunnings bags without spillage?

I haven't had success with cartridge filters, they clog too quickly especially when it gets cold. Does anyone have any clever ideas on how to include sock filters in a sealed/ closed system that would enable upflow? (I hope that makes sense)

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

The drums are plumbed together to so there is no spillage. One drum overflows into the next, but the oil enters each drum at the bottom. To prevent any syphoning, the outlet is vented above the level of the next drum.
By having the prefilter stage above the height of top of the first drum, as the bag drains prefiltered oil, it flows into the first drum.
As the oil comes out of the last drum, you can store it until needed. Tim's setup uses 2, 200L drums feeding a 1000L ISO container. This is the final settling location and he has a floating pickup for his refuelling pump, which pumps thru the cartridge filter.

There are housings available on evilbay to allow bag filters to be used under pressure.


I hope this helps,
Tony

[03Hiace Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 03Hiace]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

Hi pwibbip

I'm very happy with my OC-20 centrifuge. It's been running with a power steering pump and a high torque drill for about a year and a half. The PS pump cost $50 from the wreckers and I already had the drill.

Here's a link http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_use...uge_setup.html

With the earlier set up the CF'ed oil was continually dumped back into the dirty oil, then pumped out later. The final pass now goes straight from the CF outlet into a 1 micron filter bag and then to storage. This way it's guaranteed all the oil has gone through the CF at least once.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

The upflow systems look like they have to be "closed" to ensure uplift rather than overflow- how do you incorporate the bunnings bags without spillage?

I haven't had success with cartridge filters, they clog too quickly especially when it gets cold. Does anyone have any clever ideas on how to include sock filters in a sealed/ closed system that would enable upflow? (I hope that makes sense)

See the photo of mine in this old thread http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_use..._system-2.html

The Bunnings bag or similar is in the funnel on top of the first drum on the right. I have 5micron sock filters in the 3rd and 4th drums (far left). They are connected to the inlet pipes and completely submerged in the oil so don't dry out. After 2 years I have yet to clean the filter socks. The oil is then pumped out of the 4th drum thru twin house filters which are also a couple of years old. Most of the time it will flow thru these filters by gravity alone at about 4 litres an hour. If i want oil in a hurry I just start the pump.

[pwibbip Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pwibbip]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

Confused, bewildered, appreciate your wisdom.....

I'm still torn between paying some money for CF setup and heater with extra ongoing energy costs for the reward of a large quantity of ready to use oil and the pretty messy, slow, space occupying multi barrel upflow system.

I have been trying to rely on the settling of my oil for a regular supply but sometimes it just never settles. I have a 200L drum that has been "settling" for 6 weeks but even the top oil in the drum is milky (haven't had this problem before). A small version upflow setup (20L to 20L drum) failed the test as the added oil unsettled the settled drum, despite very low flow.

Looks like CF costs are coming right down...$330......hmmmmm what to do?

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

The only messy part of my upflow system is cleaning out the large crud from the Bunnings bags which are the first thing I pour the oil into. Actually it goes through a coarse filter made of termimesh to start, then into the Bunnings bags which all sit over the top of my first open barrel. Then it is pumped into the processing system with a gear pump.

The only mess I have is cleaning the crud out of the termi mesh screens an occasionally the fat out of the Bunnings bags. And washing my collection drums. Yes it takes up a bit of space - about 3m by 2m.

A CF needs cleaning too to clean out it's collected goop. Also you need some kind of primary filter to keep the crud out of the CF, essentially the same as the initial barrel I have for my system. I don't think either system has a clear advantage mess wise. It will depend on the quality of your initial oil and how much goop is in it to start with.

One thing the CF does not do, is to filter out your fat. A CF needs heated oil, which then melts all your fats. Unless you have exceptionally fat free oil, you are likely to have problems with summer treated oils in winter. We all have this problem and manage it in various ways. If you are using all the oil you collect each week and not storing it for long, you won't have this summer filtered oil problem in winter. However in winter you may come across problems with fat forming once it has been through your heated CF. Unless you heat your tanks and lines in your cars, this may be problem for you in Canberra.

An upflow system with drains at each stage allow for the draining off of thicker oils and refiltering to remove fats. Photos of my setup are at http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_use...html#post41860

Sorry to add another layer of complexity!!

At the end of the day, you need to build the system you are most comfortable with. You are not likely to have the same setup in one year as you started with. We all make modifications along the way - that's just part of what we do...

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

[QUOTE=pwibbip;44433]Confused, bewildered, appreciate your wisdom.....

I'm still torn between paying some money for CF setup and heater with extra ongoing energy costs for the reward of a large quantity of ready to use oil and the pretty messy, slow, space occupying multi barrel upflow system

I doubt a centrifuge is never going to be messy, you have a pump that has to run at high pressure and a centrifuge which spits oil out sideways. Plus you have to dismantle it and clean the gunk out. My upflow system has oil quietly poured in one end and filtered oil quietly flows out the other. A centrifuge would no doubt be faster but I will bet they take more of your time per litre.

I have been trying to rely on the settling of my oil for a regular supply but sometimes it just never settles. I have a 200L drum that has been "settling" for 6 weeks but even the top oil in the drum is milky

If you want it to settle you need the oil to be warm in an insulated drum.

A small version upflow setup (20L to 20L drum) failed the test as the added oil unsettled the settled drum, despite very low flow

Thats why you need more than one drum

[craigcurtin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigcurtin]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

If you need to filter around 200 litres a week then you really probably need 2 x 200 litre drums fro the initial filtering step.

The way i do it is as follows

1) Through a mesh filter from a water tank - into a bunnings bag - i try to pour only the good oil from the tops of the 20 litre drums into this - as soon as it starts to get milky, i stop and pour that into a another 20 litre drum for further settling and decanting at a later time - this milky stuff is either thicker oil (fats) or water emulsion with oil.

As you are a newbie i am pretty sure you will be collecting every bit of oil you can find regardless of the quality - as you progress down this path you will become more discerning and get more quality sources so do not despair.

2) Depending on the quality of the oil i can pour between about 40 and 60 litres into a bunnings bag and it takes less than 24 hours to go through. Once the 200 litre drum is full i let is settle for a week to let all the crud settle to the bottom - this drum has a tap on the bottom for draining any water that settles out and any heaver oil/fat. The tape for actual draining the good oil about 6 inches from the bottom. Whilst one drum is settling i am filling the next one - at the moment as i am collecting about 600 litres of oil a month - this oil settles for anything upto 2 weeks.

3) I have a sloping block, so the oil from these drums is allowed to rundown under gravity (once the taps are opened) into a 200 litre uplflow settling drum. The ouput of this flows into a 5 micron filter bag in another drum

4) This is then allowed to flow again under gravity to another 200 litre drum with a 1 micron filter. If i know i am going to need another top up soon then i trap the oil there - if not it is allowed to flow into one of my IBCs down the back yard for long term storage.

5) each time i start a new 200 litre drum of oil at the start of the process i throw away the bunnings bags - rather than go through the hassle of cleaning them.

6) I have processed over 10,000 litres of oil through the same 5 micron and 1 micron bags and only washed them twice.

With this system i do not have to put any time into supervising the oil on the way through and can process anything upto 200 litres per week with no problems.

I think a centrifuge whilst great is too time intensive.

Craig

[dave1963 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dave1963]

Re: Centrifuge setup- what pump to use?

i have been using centrifuge for 18 months and can do 160L in a couple of hours,put oil in turn on walk away come back put clean oil in drums no mess at all,filtered to less than 1 micron,if you are going to do somthing do it properly.
cheers DAVE