Filtering SVO in-situ

[Dr C]

I'm setting up an SVO system for my ute with two SVO tanks - one slung under the tray on each side.

Now, the biggest issue of course is filtering. It seems that most people filter the oil before it goes into the vehicle, but given the viscosity of oil this can be a fairly time-consumng process. I'd like to set up a system where it's all done on the car - after the oil is heated - this should make it easier.

Has anyone done this? The real question I have is what level of filtration is required and possible?

My plan is that each tank will have its won pump and filter. After the oil has been heated I turn on the pump and recycle it through the filter. It's sucked out of the bottom port, through a supercheap paper filter, and back into the top of the tank. I run it like this, perhaps for a day (while I'm driving the car) until no more solids are accumulating in the filter (changing it if necessary).

When I'm happy that the paper filter has done all it's going to do (does anyone know the particle size that these things filter down to?) I change the position of the fuel cock and switch to it as my fuel source. Before the oil reaches the standard Mitsi filter it goes through a Frantz 1um filter, (http://www.frantzfilters.com.au/Products.htm) which should take out anything that gets through the paper filter.

My Only concern is whether the hot oil will go through the Frantz element. I think it probably will as it's high surface area, but I'd be curious to know if anyone has used one of these on an SVO setup

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Mark,
While I encourage you to proceed with your "on the go" filtering system, I see the following as issues which need to be considered:
1. The toilet paper elements are known to develop "tracks" thru them which will allow oil to pass thru unfiltered.
2. The flow rate is low when they are working properly.
3. How will you know it is time to change the toilet rolls? Are you planning on having a pressure switch to let you know it is not flowing well?
4. How will you know when the oil has been filtered completely?
5. What about any heavy particulates which settle to the bottom of the tank. They will not be picked up by the filter until the tank level falls and sloshing fuel picks them up and allows them to flow to the fuel system. Perhaps using well settled fuel would prevent this.

I hope this helps,
Tony

[Johnnojack]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Re Tony's point 5. I have always been sceptical of filtering by cycling around the same vessel. It is fundamentally flawed in that you are returning the clean oil to a dirty container, it doesn't matter how many times you cycle it around you can never be sure all the oil has been filtered.
Just like Tony says about the toilet roll/Franz filter, been there, rejected that. Another disadvantage of mobile filtering is you don't give settling a chance to happen. Settling is by far and away the easiest and best (but not quickest) way to clean oil.

[Dr C]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

1. The toilet paper elements are known to develop "tracks" thru them which will allow oil to pass thru unfiltered

Zat so? I didn't know that. I was in Autobarn the other day abd they had some generic fuel filters that were sintered glass. Has anyone used these? The advantage of these is that they could be backflushed and reused.

How will you know it is time to change the toilet rolls? Are you planning on having a pressure switch to let you know it is not flowing well?

No, I just change them once a fortnight - elements are only $2 each. I used to run them in my Landcruiser and just left them in until the car started to lose power and I had to change them by the side of the road. Not fun.

Just like Tony says about the toilet roll/Franz filter, been there, rejected that.

Have you tried them, or just rejected the idea? I've used them on my B100 for a while and they work well. My only concern with SVO is that the viscosity of SVO (even when heated) would be an issue.

[Johnnojack]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Yes Doc I have tried them on veg and they did form tracks. Vegetable oil seems to soften the whole roll which can then move/compress to allow tracks to form. I have used the same filter elements on engine oil for many years and the filter does not do this but stays relatively rigid. Tell us more about the Autobarn filters.

[peter1]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Filtering is only time consuming if it's not set up properly. I regularly do 200L batches in less than 15 min hands on time and it could be faster if I was to automate the manual filling I do now for the exercise by pumping the oil in. Once I fill my processor it does it's thing untouched and I could easy have it shut down on its own when finished as well. 7.5 minutes a week average if you use 100L of oil a week does not seem time consuming to me. If you only use 50L a week, it's going to take you longer to put the fuel in the car than process it.

The onboard thing is going to create more hassles and take far more time than it's worth. It seems your experience with veg is pretty limited, not the sort of base you want to be working from in trying to re invent the wheel.

[Dr C]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

The onboard thing is going to create more hassles and take far more time than it's worth. It seems your experience with veg is pretty limited, not the sort of base you want to be working from in trying to re invent the wheel.

True, but my experience with chemistry and filtration is anything but limited, and when it's all said and done, oil is just another chemical.

Yes Doc I have tried them on veg and they did form tracks. Vegetable oil seems to soften the whole roll which can then move/compress to allow tracks to form. I have used the same filter elements on engine oil for many years and the filter does not do this but stays relatively rigid. Tell us more about the Autobarn filters

Was it hot veg that you tried it on?

The Autobahn filters have a sintered glass element, which is an interesting analogy to what happens in a lab. If I was going to filter a solution in a lab, my choice would be an old-fashioned Buchner funnel, where I'd use a filter paper, or a sintered glass funnel, where no paper is required. Sintered glass looks a bit like the airstones that you use in aquariums.

The good thing about the sintered glass elements is that they'd be back-flushable and therefore reusable. They're more expensive ($9) than the SuperCheap paper ones, but that'd be offset if they could be reused. That's of course if I decided it was worth my time to try to save myself $9....

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Mark,
Comparison of filters (as you should know) is more than a price comparison, other factors to consider could include:
Effective filter area
Capacity (to hold contaminants)
Design flow rate
Micron rating (x microns [Absolute or Multi-pass])

Do you have a link to the sintered glass filter? I am interested.

Regards,
Tony

[Lozzer]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Hi Doc,

Like the others, I congratulate you on your lateral thinking and adventurous spirit.

Also like the others have suggested though, I believe that you would make better use of your time and money developing off car filtering systems.

Simple is ALWAYS better. The core aspects of a simple and efficient filtering system in my opinion are gravity, time and heat (lack thereof that is). Others might argue with the latter but I can only go on my own experience.

Almost any crap svo that you obtain will sort itself out into an over layer of clear oil and and under layer of gloop in a relatively short space of time. through gravity and if left undisturbed. An upflow storage system assists here and you simply only ever pump from the top layer. The settling process wont go nearly so well under an environment of perpetual motion!

The cooler oil is when passing through the filter medium, the fewer the quantity of fats that will end up in your tank and in any onboard filters. Its sooo much more preferable to be able to clean and replace off board filters than to have to clean on board filters, the latter usually occurring at night, and on a busy four lane road and while its raining, and while you have a car load of tired and hungry kids, according to Mr Murphy.

Laurie

[hobie1kanobie]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

yeah got to agree with most of the comments here. The off board filtering is so much easier.my set up using upflow drums, alltho took 8 to 10 weeks to feed, is now, 50 liters in 50 liters out. I could do more but i only use small amounts these days. If i need to fill up the 100 liter oil tank, i would do it over 3 or 4 days at a time. this would only be done if i knew i was planning a big trip. Cold filtering is my most preferred method. i only HPT every other batch, and so far the supplier i have has given me some really good dry oils.

i have seen some guys using on the fly pump setups using bag filters in PVC pipe, 5 micron from memory. pump only the good top layer and discard the rest.

the KISS principle is something that i learned from here, too many things can and will go wrong if you over complicate things. So far to date, i have 100 thous kays under the wheels. and only one major issue. Not oil fuel related, rather a mechanical issue with the IP. which as pointed out by the Deso mech's could not have been counted on. The hard chrome came off the impeller/ pump shaft and reeked havoc inside the pump.

anyways, my 2 cents. and a big Thanks to those who helped my on this oily road trip.

[Dr C]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Mark,
Comparison of filters (as you should know) is more than a price comparison, other factors to consider could include:
Effective filter area
Capacity (to hold contaminants)
Design flow rate
Micron rating (x microns [Absolute or Multi-pass])

Do you have a link to the sintered glass filter? I am interested.

Regards,
Tony

No link to the sintered glass filters. I just saw them in a box on the counter last time I was in there. No idea what the pore size is either, and I doubt they'd know if I asked.

I'm still curious to know whether anyone's tried the supercheap paper filters with hot oil.

The principle I'm working on here is that hot filtering solves a thousand problems. I know that nothing bigger than 1um will get through the Frantz. If it gets too much gunk it clogs and the car stops - happened a few times over the years when I got lazy with my filter regime,mainly because they are an utter bastard to replace - the kind of job that you have to psych yourself up for with a strong cup of coffee.

[peter1]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

True, but my experience with chemistry and filtration is anything but limited, and when it's all said and done, oil is just another chemical.

That statement let alone what you are proposing shows your experience with this " Chemical " and it's properties and proclivities is very limited.

[Dr C]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

That statement let alone what you are proposing shows your experience with this " Chemical " and it's properties and proclivities is very limited.

Why the inverted commas? One of the oddest things about this forum is he readiness of some people to patronise others.

My approach is to design my system based on first principles. That is, I use my extensive general knowledge of both chemicals and filtration to design a system that will achieve what I want it to achieve. The fact that no one has done this before, as it appears that no one has, does not faze me at all. The fact that everyone else makes biodiesel by an excessively complex procedure that requires both titration and heating did not stop me designing a procedure that does not require either of those things.

I began this thread in order to save myself some experimentation - to not reinvent the wheel as it were. In particular, my system involves hot filtering. Do I take it then that no one on this forum has tried hot filtering, either on the car or otherwise?

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Why the inverted commas? One of the oddest things about this forum is he readiness of some people to patronise others.

My approach is to design my system based on first principles. That is, I use my extensive general knowledge of both chemicals and filtration to design a system that will achieve what I want it to achieve. The fact that no one has done this before, as it appears that no one has, does not faze me at all. The fact that everyone else makes biodiesel by an excessively complex procedure that requires both titration and heating did not stop me designing a procedure that does not require either of those things.

I began this thread in order to save myself some experimentation - to not reinvent the wheel as it were. In particular, my system involves hot filtering. Do I take it then that no one on this forum has tried hot filtering, either on the car or otherwise?

Mark,
Plenty of people have tried hot filtering both in vehicle and out of the vehicle. This is why members here are giving the recommendations they are.

Cold filtering removes the HMP oils which may solidify in the vehicle fuel system. The fats in the filter bag increase the particulate removal properties of the filter, even removing what many here feel is fine flour (no it had not been analysed, hence my phrasing) which has caused concern amongst some who hot filter.

We are happy for you to install your system and hope you are successful. Our comments are based on minimising the need for re-work of your system or filter blockages, based on the experience of many members who have tried this on this and other forums.

You mention your cold, no titration biodiesel process. Some time ago, you mentioned this, but got upset when I asked you to share it. As you are still not a millionaire (or have maintained your lifestyle despite it) I presume that you have not sold it to industry and retired. If it is not about to provide you millions in royalties, perhaps you would care to share your process with us.
Regards,
Tony

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: Filtering SVO in-situ

Hi C,

One of the oddest things about this forum is he readiness of some people to patronise others.

I think it is a bit odd that some people seem to feel it necessary to let people know they are a Dr of some sort by always using the honorific title Dr in any writing they do that uses their name.

The fact that everyone else makes biodiesel by an excessively complex procedure that requires both titration and heating did not stop me designing a procedure that does not require either of those things.

I NEVER titrate the oil when I make production batches of biodiesel. Lots of people do not titrate when they make biodiesel.

It has been "common knowledge" for the last 10 years or more that the only heating requirement to produce biodiesel is just enough heat to insure everything remains liquid.
In the early years of biodiesel production it was fairly normal practice to perform the reaction at room temperature.

Of course we went all through this the last time you posted your claims about your exciting new procedure and it appears you have forgotten everything that was told to you at the time.

You also seem to have a limited knowledge about all the different procedures people use to produce biodiesel in their backyard.

A number of years ago there was a fellow from WA who converted a bus to run on WVO. He did an around Australia tour and when he arrived here in Paradise I gave him several hundred litres of Frytol.
All he did was heat it until it was liquid and pumped it through a sock filter into his holding tank. It was not a concern if some water went into the tank.
He had some type of on board filtering and heating system that cleaned it all up.

Maybe someone will remember who he is

QUICK UPDATE
The person is Andrew
A google search turned up the link

http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4769