Newbie Set up Advice needed!

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi
Gregg,

Hi all,
...The plastcisiers get into the high pressure side of the pump and "glue" the impellor to the housing, we have seen this on 3 seperate occasions,...

Let's just stop here for a second. How was it determined that the "glue" was plasticizers from the fuel filter? Just saying it is does not mean it is. There must have been some meaningful scientific testing performed to come to such an unusual conclusion.

the fuel tank also smells like a tin of oil-based paint this is a dead give away that the fuel is compromised.

Interesting that you bring that up. For the last several days I have been cleaning out old plastic 20 litre containers that I have stored biodiesel in. They all smell exactly as you describe and the liquid in them is quite thick. This is referred to as oxidation and polymerization. It has nothing to do with plasticizers emanating from non-original fuel filters.

...I sugested the only difference was the filter??, the tank was drained of the smelly fuel, filter changed to a genuine, filled with new fuel from my processor (same as allways) and new pump fitted...that was 3 years ago and it's still going strong with no smell!

I am getting the feeling that there was not actually any real testing performed.
You removed the contaminated fuel, replaced the fuel filter, and the car has run fine ever since. Sounds good to me

I have other stories about other cars I supply with fuel, but I'm sick of typing now!! me tradesman...not typist!

Over the last 12 years I have heard a lot of stories about biodiesel too. Many them were not accurate.

PS If there was actually any meaningful testing performed I would sure like to read it. A hyperlink would be great.

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Tilly,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs p;&nbsp;&nbsp; First point, we tested two indentical vehicles side by side for nearly 5 yrs and over 100 00km, the one with non genuine filters failed three fuel pumps(in tank electric) and the other is still running the same pump. the only difference being the filter, I can't see how you fail to see this is a legitament test? Once the filter was changed , the vehicle was run on the same fuel and since then, nearly 3 yrs, no further problems have arisen. Once again , the only difference was a different filter, I have been making Bio-dsiesel for nearly 16 yrs and have had many different engines running side by side to do comparisons on, I'm not a mechanic or chemist, but I've had a lot of time to know what works and dosen't. It took several attempts to find a suitable filter for the fuel processor, Delphi seems to be the best I found, Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time.<br><br>As far as "meaningful scientific testing" goes , I don't keep charts or write reports, I just make fuel and learn from my mistakes and results, as far as I'm concerned, if a tank of fuel changes it's smell in the car, something is not right !&nbsp; Whether you call them polymers or whatever, I know what worked for me and in my case, making fuel for other people, I have to be confident in the product I make, and apart from the vehicle I mentioned, we haven't had one fuel related breakdown in ten yrs .. touch wood!!. <br><br>In the early days we had problems using flexible PVC tube in the plant , but once that was replaced with nylon and viton , that solved stickiness in the fuel, but that took a long time to discover as well!, no internet for me back then, just books !<br><br>I'm just trying to pass on some advice I've learnt over the yrs?<br><br>PS, I haven't got a clue what a "hyperlink" is<img class="inlineimg" title="Wink" border="0" alt="" src="http://www.biofuelsforum.com/images/smilies/wink.png" smilieid="4"><br><br>Cheers Gregg

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

3gs,
It looks like you typed your response in a web page editor.
Please use notepad or type straight into the reply panel. All of the "&nbsp;","&nbsp" and "<br>". etc are making your reply difficult to read.

Regards,
Tony

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Tilly , I did post a long and detailed reply, but I see it isn't up yet?

Gregg

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Tom , sounds like a rip off to me. Im currently living in wiltshire, UK and that is a steep price. If your ever down these parts let me know and ill run you through the basics if you like.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Gregg,

First point, we tested two indentical vehicles side by side for nearly 5 yrs and over 100 00km, the one with non genuine filters failed three fuel pumps(in tank electric) and the other is still running the same pump. the only difference being the filter,

I see. It was the fuel pumps in the fuel tank that were failing and not the IP that was failing. So whether the IP is high pressure common-rail or one of the older lower pressure IP's, it has nothing to do with the problem.

What do you mean by "side by side"? Were the side by side tests conducted on both cars that had being bought new at the same time and over the next 5 years the cars were used by the same driver on alternate days driving to the same places and in identical conditions and there was never anything other than your biodiesel to fuel the cars from new?
If two different people owned and used these cars there will be many many differences in the conditions and manner they were operated over the years besides the fuel filters being used.

I can't see how you fail to see this is a legitament test?

A legitimate test of what? I am only questioning your statement that non-original fuel filters release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors. So far I see nothing in your "testing" that makes me come to that conclusion or that it is a legitimate test of anything.
It certainly does not demonstrate that non-original fuel filters release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors.

Once the filter was changed , the vehicle was run on the same fuel and since then, nearly 3 yrs, no further problems have arisen. Once again , the only difference was a different filter,

Unless you bought both cars from new and operated them as I described above, there will have been many differences besides the fuel filters.

It took several attempts to find a suitable filter for the fuel processor, Delphi seems to be the best I found, Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time.

We are not talking about filters for the processor we are talking about fuel filters on cars. Also, unless the paint is on the inside of the filter, which is very unlikely, paint failing on the outside of the filter has nothing to do with the filtering qualities of the filter.
Which paper swelled? Was it the filter medium inside the filter? Did you cut the filters open to have a look?

As far as "meaningful scientific testing" goes , I don't keep charts or write reports, I just make fuel and learn from my mistakes and results, as far as I'm concerned, if a tank of fuel changes it's smell in the car, something is not right

Yes, it has probably oxidized. This is often an indication of older fuel stored in containers that were not airtight.

Whether you call them polymers or whatever, I know what worked for me and in my case, making fuel for other people, I have to be confident in the product I make, and apart from the vehicle I mentioned, we haven't had one fuel related breakdown in ten yrs .. touch wood!!.

I am glad to hear you have not had any further problems. Just make sure to fill the storage containers to the top and close them so that therse is no chance of air getting into the container Also make sure you use your biodiesel in a timely manner so that it does not sit in storage for long periods..

I still do not understand how you ever concluded that the problem was plasticisers coming out of non-original fuel filters. That is just so out of left field. I do not think I would have thought of that in 100 years.

I haven't got a clue what a "hyperlink" is
Cheers Gregg

The line below is a hyperlink. Click on it and see how useful hyperlinks are.
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/hyperlink.html

EDIT
Actually, thinking about this, the fact that the problem was with the fuel pumps in the fuel tank and not with the IP, that is a good indication that whatever the problem was was not due to the fuel filters. Otherwise the IP would have been affected too.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Gregg,
additional information to my above post

... Ryco and fleetguard were the two worst for being affected by the fuel, the Fleetguard lost it's paint and the paper swelled in a very short time.

"Fleetguard is a brand name of Cummins Filtration, the filter company of Cummins, Inc that builds all filters for Cummins OEM applications."

If you have a Cummins or Mopar diesel it has a Fleetguard fuel filter as OEM
See the hyper links below
Fleetguard Filters Guide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopar

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Tilly, to answer your questions , again, please go back and read my first post on TD5 engines, they do NOT have IP as you say, the pump in the tank is a two stage pump that supplies fuel to the fuel rail, this pump has two ceramic discs that , on three seperate occasions , became stuck due to a substance , plasticisers or whatever you wan't to call it and thus burnt out the motor. I say again, this only happened on the car with the non- genuine filter and odd smelling fuel. To answer your second question, both cars are identical in every way, using the same fuel from the same proceesor and most times from the same batch, no other fuel was added to either vehicle and the fuel was never more than a week old. I say again, the ONLY difference being the fuel filters, to have three pumps fail in a row on one car and not another surely points to one common denominator...or don't you get that? Furthermore , since the filter change, the problem vehicle has had no further issues, what more proof do you want!

I admit I don't have the resources to test the exact properties of the contaminant, but its' sticky and does not wash away with fuel or water, so I'm only summisng it's origin, but if ti were oxidation, then my car would be suffereing the same problems, which it isn't?.

Second point, fuel filteers, whether on the plant or in a car , play a vital role in the quality of the fuel ,so it's important to have compatible ones in all stages of the process. The paint on the fleetguard was indeed on the inside (why would I worry about the outside??), and also the element quickly swelled and became unusable in a very short time and yes I DID cut the filter open to check, I have cut many filters and pumps open so I do know what I'm talking about.. If you have had as much time as I have making fuel and trying many different things, you'd know what things work and what don't through trial and error, and making many mistakes!

As you know , a lot of materials are NOT suitable for use with Bio-Diesel and SVO, PVC, Poly prop and many others , including Brass and Bronze (to some degree) to name just a couple, I'm not saying that all OEM filters are compatible and not all non-genuine aren't, but I stand by my results 100&#37;, whether you agree with them or not, I really don't care!.
My orignal post was to give some advice to a fellow Landrover owner from things I have experienced in over 15yrs of fuel making, you can take it or leave it! But my fuel customers, some who have been using my fuel for a decade ,seem to be happy with my efforts?

Cheers Gregg

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

&#37;
Hi Gregg,

Tilly, to answer your questions , again, please go back and read my first post on TD5 engines, they do NOT have IP as you say,

I looked it up and I found this
Web Rover
It says "Unlike most other diesel engines, the Td5 has no fuel injection pump (FIP). The second stage of the fuel pump draws fuel from the filter and pressurises it to 4 bar before supplying it to the engine ..."
4 bar is only 58psi.

I then found this further information on this site- TD5
"Td5 typically use 1500 Bar (22,000 psi)...the pressure is created directly and briefly within the injector itself"

In your earlier post you said "each pot has it's own unit injector driven off the camshaft to compress the fuel, then a electronic injector delivers the fuel, so each cylinder has it's own pump"

So it seems that each cylinder is it's own own IP and apparently none of these have failed, only the fuel pump in the fuel tank has failed. That suggests to me that because only the fuel pump in the tank has failed and the injectors have not failed, the problem is not with the filter.

on three seperate occasions , became stuck due to a substance, plasticisers or whatever you wan't to call it and thus burnt out the motor.

I want to call it what it really is. There is already way to much wrong information posted on the internet about making biodiesel. So far there has been no meaningful testing performed that I can detect. You are just guessing.
I am surprised a person with all your experience has never heard of oxydation and polymerisation before.

I say again, this only happened on the car with the non- genuine filter and odd smelling fuel.

Odd smelling fuel. That indicates his fuel has suffered from oxydation and polymerization. That is usually a production and storage problem.

To answer your second question, both cars are identical in every way,

Unless you mean they are owned by the same person who bought them both new just to do this testing they are not identical in every way. You can say they are identical in every way as many times as you like and it will still not be true

Furthermore , since the filter change, the problem vehicle has had no further issues, what more proof do you want!

I see no proof. You also drained the smelly fuel. If I were guessing, which I rarely do, the fuel would be my first guess.
All I see is two fellows who own the same sort of car using your biodiesel and one has had fuel pump failures and the other one has not.

The paint on the fleetguard was indeed on the inside (why would I worry about the outside??), and also the element quickly swelled and became unusable in a very short time and yes I DID cut the filter open to check, I have cut many filters and pumps open so I do know what I'm talking about

That is interesting that Fleetguard paint the inside of their fuel filters, who would have thought that.
As I said in my last post, Fleetguard fuel filters are original equipment on Cummins Diesels which includes over 2 million diesels used in dodge trucks.
If fleetguard fuel filters are such poor quality there is a problem

EDIT
I just found this on a Landrover discussion site. Whether it is true or not...

"1. There is no such thing as a "genuine Land Rover filter". No honestly, there isn't. Land Rover, like all motor manufacturers buy in the vast majority of components they use to assemble their vehicles. As such, they buy filters (with a pre-determined spec I'm sure) from any one of half a dozen major manufactures of filters around the world, and they alter their suppliers regularly to get the best terms for LR; Coopers, Mahle & UFI are just some of the names that come to mind;

2. You appear to imply that the LR filter gave you problems;

3. There will always be a compromise between effective filtration and permitting the medium (air, oil or fuel) to pass through unhindered. Changing the filters regularly should avoid blockage problems unless there are issues 'upstream' of it.

4. Exactly the same 'genuine' Land Rover fuel filter goes into hundreds of other cars, from Alfa Romeo's to who knows what !!!!

5. There is a difference between an OEM filter and a genuine Land Rover one - 30 seconds in a spray booth for the LR logo and a 100% increase in the price."

[craigcurtin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigcurtin]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Umm,

Something i am not understanding here (and maybe it is just me being stupid) - how is the pump which is in the fuel tank (and presumably therefore before the filter ? - even if it is a two stage pump ?) being affected by the filter - which is presumably outside of the tank ?

Is the suggestion here that the fuel that is returning to the tank - after the injectors and these nifty little itty bitty pumps in each injector - then somehow returning this plasticizer compound to the tank ?

Just curious to follow through the initial logic - without even worrying about what is the correct filter to use ?

Craig

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Thanks Tony, don't know what I did there!!
Cheers Gregg

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Craig,
The fuel is pumped from the tank through the filter, then back to the pump, then on to the fuel rail. All unused fuel, and there can be quite a lot at idle, is returned via the filter (to mix with cooler fuel from the tank) then into the tank. The TD5 fuel system is quite different to normal systems in the way the fuel is piped around. The design of the pump makes it vulnerable to poor fuel, unlike most mechanical IP's which will handle poor quality fuel (including SVO), this pump,like the ones in newer common rail engines, is less forgiving !!,and therefore is a type of "barometer" as far as fuel quality goes.

Cheers Gregg

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Gregg,
I have been reading on Landrover forums. It seems the fuel pump in question has known reliability problems. Here are some comments I have located.

Ok the fuel pump issue, I'm about to put in my 4th with 150k on the clock


fuel pump is a right royal pain in the arse to do. probably the most common of faults on the defender.


I am now about to fit the 2nd fuel pump in 18 months gets gunked up garage says its bio fuel that does it.


Thanks for the input guy's. Just how many of these have guys had go on them? Am I an exception? Reason for asking is that perhaps I have a issue that is causing the pumps to fail (3 in the last 40k, although this has been over 3.5 years).


I have heard of cases of the pumps being full of crud due apparantly due to 5&#37; biodiesel in all diesel nowadays so may be possible to lift out of tank and clean off?

I gave the fuel tank a few good kicks after the pump stopped working. Might not be the right way to do it, but it's been working ever since and worth a try.

[Threegees Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Threegees]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

Hi Tilly
Yes , some people have bad luck with them, others do 200 00km or more on the same one?. This is exactly my point on fuel quality and how these pumps sort out the good from the bad?. My pump has done nearly 90 000 km, all on B100, the last one in my mates car did 3 months!!, thats when we replaced the filter with a genuine and that was 3 yrs ago. It would be interesting to do a survey of owners of TD5's and see if the pump failures have any relation to filter types.

A large non- dealer Land Rover parts supplier in my city does not recommend non-genuine filters due to a large number of complaints of fuel problems, mostly with Bio-blends but also with Dino diesel? I'm also on the Queensland LR forum and 99&#37; of the people with premature pump failures run regular diesel, it's almost impossible to by commercial Bio here, so it's not the problem ,when I cut the last Coopers filter apart, the plastic support tube was completly deformed , the paper was not too badly swelled?, but the big concern was the disc that supported the filter paper, it was made of galvenised tin, a combination know to cause oxidation in fuel. There was also a red slime in the filler nozel which was very sticky (same as in the pump), oxidation I assume as well, but this has also gone?

I think it's still a guessing game sometimes as far as component suitabllity is concerned?
Cheers Gregg.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Newbie Set up Advice needed!

&#37;

Hi Gregg,

Hi Tilly
Yes , some people have bad luck with them, others do 200 00km or more on the same one?. This is exactly my point on fuel quality and how these pumps sort out the good from the bad?.

From what I have read It does not seem that fuel quality has anything to do with it.There is a problem with the fuel pump and it frequently fails. Occasionally you will get a good one that lasts a while. It is just luck as to whether your pump lasts or not. And I gather they are very expensive.
All pretty standard for Land Rover

My pump has done nearly 90 000 km, all on B100, the last one in my mates car did 3 months!!, thats when we replaced the filter with a genuine and that was 3 yrs ago. It would be interesting to do a survey of owners of TD5's and see if the pump failures have any relation to filter types.

Maybe the colour of the shirt the mechanic was wearing when he installed the fuel pump is important too.

A large non- dealer Land Rover parts supplier in my city does not recommend non-genuine filters due to a large number of complaints of fuel problems, mostly with Bio-blends but also with Dino diesel?
I'm also on the Queensland LR forum and 99%; of the people with premature pump failures run regular diesel, it's almost impossible to by commercial Bio here, so it's not the problem

Of course it is not the problem, the problem is with the quality of the design and construction of the pump itself. As soon as you start reading Land Rover discussion forums that becomes obvious.
This morning I found this 2 week old post from a fellow in Melbourne that sums it up rather nicely.
"I have to replace the fuel pump for my TD5 as i am sure most of us have (or soon will) at some stage while owning a TD5 (Disco or Def)"

I think it's still a guessing game sometimes as far as component suitabllity is concerned?
Cheers Gregg.

You are the only one who seems to be guessing.
Back to my concern with your statement..."use only genuine LR fuel filters,non-genuine filters are not compatable and release plasticisers into the fuel which stick pumps and injectors,"
I have seen nothing that makes me think that using non genuine fuel filters releases plasticisers into the fuel which sticks pumps and injectors.
The fact that the high pressure pumps in the injectors, which must be built to closer tolerances than the fuel pump in the fuel tank, were not affected is a pretty compelling demonstration that the fuel filter is doing it's job and is not the cause of the problem.


EDIT
I just located this on a Land Rover forum-

"Yesterday put the Old Girl into garage to have a fuel pump replaced as they had fitted it only three months ago, it was screaming as soon as you turned the ignition on and all the time you were driving it, a bit embarrassing in traffic. Besides doing 10,000 miles in the three months and being told I was lucky as the pump (L/R Genuine) only had a 12,000 mile guarantee, it was changed under warranty no problem, but one thing they did say was that it was probably due to the Fuel Filter collapsing internally ( fitted same time as pump) as mine had done and it was a quite common occurrence?...it was a l/r dealer that changed the pump and filter ?"