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Thread: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

  1. #1
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    Dec 2011
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    HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    Jackpot!!

    Wow, so glad I found this forum. A mate and I have just started converting our old troopy (1980 HJ45- what a sexy beast!!) and are looking for as much info and help as possible. I think I have read most of your posts Froggo, wealth of knowledge, cheers. We are getting the car ready to do a two year trip around aus, so she'll be doing loooooong trips and we have to filter on the go, we have built a really compact, slow but effective system for that (we are very rich in time, quite money poor)... we have been collecting oil for a while now and have been pretty lucky picking it up randomly. we are running a two tank system so we always have diesel as back up option. We have already built a gravity fed filter system, it goes through about 7 levels of filters finishing with a small repco filter before it even hits the tank. Have a few ideas to share with you and would warmly welcome any suggestions you have, we also have lots of questions, here goes!!

    At this stage we think we will put the new bits and bobs in the following order- small 4-7psi fuel pump straight after svo tank, half inch fuel line leading to 30 plate heat exchange, followed by CAV filter..... (hopefully we can get a decent temp and pressure gauge for decent price to put here, any suggestions where to start this search?) 3 way pollak valve for cross over from diesel to svo and finally lift pump/injector pump. Actually, we change our minds about this order every ten minutes, any guidence seriously appreciated!! Keep in mind we are brand new at this game and have only seen a few pirate travellers in europe do this on the dodge; it works for them but ideally we like to have a primo system running for minimal f*** ups.

    We are umming and ahhing and quite stuck on the inline pump story at the moment we have been told so many different stories about pressure for the injector pump. Some say we need a 25-40psi pump so we have been looking at a shurflo pump for around $90, but have also been told that the pressure guage release valve on this is likely to conk out after 1000kms, no good. All the diesel mechanics we have spoken to have said to just get a little 5/10 psi inline fuel pump to support the injector pump. I dunno that this will be enough; she is an old car, the injectors are the originals and im a bit scared that she might starve....I have asked about 10 million diesel professionals for the exact pressure within the fuel system to be told.......ummmm.....ahhhhh...go ask someone else...... boo. any suggestions?

    Also,how important are the temperature and pressure gauges? sure if we end up putting a big mumma shurflo pump in we will need a pressure regulator but if we just go for the little one, is it neccesary?

    Also, any suggestions on putting the 3 way valve for diesel svo swapover as close to the injector pump as possible? our logic is this way we minimise the parts which use both fuels, therefore minimising cruddy build up, etc...

    Also was speaking to a mate last night and he asked what we were doing about carbon build up... ho hum... my understanding of carbon is that the particles are sub micron level- how the f*** are we meant to filter that out? settle it? chemical filtration? again, guidence well appreciated!!!

    Froggo, ive been trying to find some pictures of your set up, with no luck, if you could point me in the right direction that would be ace!!!

    Cheers all, hope you are all having a ripper day, cant wait for your replies!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    Welcome.

    So, you have a 2H in your Troopy. This will work well on WVO with a good setup.

    Bigger fuels lines - tick
    30 plate heat exchanger - tick
    CAV filter - Yes, these work. Are they messy to change the filter? Yep. Make sure you mount it over an open area so the oil falls into a container, not the bodywork. An option is a spin on filter, by buying a filter head and filters to match. CAV is commonly used, just not my preferred option.

    Pollack change over valve just prior to the lift pump. Tick for the location. As per the FAQ's and stickies at the top of the forum, Pollacks are rated at ? 70°C. You will be pushing 90°C oil through them. Your choice. Another option is an Omar valve with a much larger orifice, or a fully mechanical three way valve driven by a cable into the cabin.

    In line fuel pumps. Contentious, as you say.

    I do not have one, but the way I have my setup is that the lift pump pushes oil through the filter, not sucking. You are relying on your lift pump to suck the cold oil along the lines, and through the filter. They are designed to push, not suck, but don't do a bad job of sucking.

    The specification for the outlet of the lift pump on a 2H is
    Discharge pressure: 1.8 - 2.2 kg/cm2 126 - 31 psi. 177 - 216 kPa)
    Discharge volume: 900 cc/min 154.9 cu in./min.) or more

    This is taken from the 2H/12ht engine manual. 60 Series Workshop Manuals


    This means the Injection pump needs to see something like this pressure. In reality, they work with a lot less. There is a current thread discussing this very point about injection pump internal pressures, and the benefits of adding a gear pump to drive the fuel into the IP.

    If you choose the pump option, be very very careful that the inline pump you choose will pump cold WVO at the volume and pressure you need. i.e. 5 psi and 1 litre a minute. Just because it is called a fuel pump and you are using it for what you call your fuel does not mean it will work on cold WVO. In my early days, I gained more problems, not less, by adding an inline pump that was not effective. I have a box full of components that were listed as suitable for diesel, but useless for WVO.

    I would try the system first without it. If you have problems, add a pump. Remember that if this pump fails, it will very likely block your fuel flow completely. Whereas careful design may allow you to get away with no pump = less things to go wrong.

    You are on the right track. Install what you have and see how it goes.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney
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    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    GUys,

    Froggo had a bit of turmoil in his life a while ago and has not been very active on the forum lately - but you are getting good advice from one of the cruiser experts (TimHj61)

    I would add that if you are going to go for a lift pump then make sure it is a proper pump - designed for these sort of fuels.

    I have a chevy 6.5L engine and am using 2 x walbro FRB-5 pumps - they work fine - but i loop my return - these are pressure regulated and work fine with cold WVO (once you remove the internal mesh screen)

    Another option is to look on US EBAY for a 2nd hand mallory pump 4140 or better - i have a 4140 and 4250 that i got for about $100 each plus $30 odd in shipping charges - i am just trying to get around to installing those - these pumps move a serious amount of fuel.

    If you are going to be doing filtering on the go then make sure you only take from the tops of sealed drums and only nice clear oil. I am currently working on a system for my suburban to do both the filtering and dewatering. However this will end up being a $600-$700 system depending on how fancy you want to get.

    You will need a method for heating the oil to get a reasonable flow rate if you are planning on using gravity (or have a lot of patience)

    I personally use Omars Valves and think they are great - have had no problems with them.

    Craig
    Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
    210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

    Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

    30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
    Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

    50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    Craig

    These are good leads for those wanting to use pumps. If I get around to it, I'll make a sticky for inline inboard pumps that work on WVO.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney
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    829

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    No worries Tim.

    You did all the heavy lifting with the info on the actual Troopy

    Craig
    Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
    210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

    Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

    30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
    Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

    50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Mount Gambier
    Posts
    950

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    My only thoughts are 10 plate heat exchangers are probably enough, Due to oil being easier to heat than coolant? (I run 2 on my cruiser, one before the filter and one before the IP.
    cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

  7. #7
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    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    829

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    I do not know enough about the troopy to comment. I know on my suburban (similar size) - i have a Helton dual coil down the back before the filters and then a 30 plate FPHE under the bonnet just before the IP

    When i am up to temp (68c) on my OBDII computer - my rear helton is showing as being at 40c

    My front FPHE is at 65c

    At the rear of the car i go from the oil tank through 1/2 inch fuel line (about 600mm) to the Helton and then into my Walbro and from there about 1 metre to my dual (in parallel) CAV filters

    When the car gets right upto temp which is about 75c i find the Helton hovers around 60c and after about 10 minutes of running my CAV filters are at 35c

    I believe the Helton is equivalent to about a 16 plate FPHE.

    I also have a bosch water circulating pump to push the coolant to the back

    I expected to see much higher temps at my helton and dual CAV filters at the rear so was quite surprised once i got it all instrumented.

    Craig
    Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
    210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

    Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

    30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
    Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

    50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    I ran a 16 plate heat exchanger for several years and measured 70°C on the WVO outlet.

    I changed this over to a 30 plate and routinely read 80°C at the WVO outlet. WVO is looped, which helps.

    If the engine is working hard off road, WVO temps get close to 100°C, indicating pretty much a 100% efficiency of transferring the temperature through to the WVO fuel. The HE coolant comes from the back of the motor, the hottest area, and is wrapped in blue hikers mat material and duct tape to protect that matting from deteriorating. The insulation keeps the heat in.

    Is there a functional difference in performance, reliability, etc etc., between 70°C and 85 - 100°C. Probably not, but it's nice to have the very very best as possible. Who else has that dreaded little voice that says, 'yeah, works okay, but could it be better?" ... :-)

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    14

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    Hello again,
    Wow, thanks so much for the feedback, free information is such a treat!!! Ok so she was chugging away ok for a little while on SVO, then she spluttered a bit and we have since swapped back to diesel(flushed all the lines ok) because we thought that the problem wasn’t with the actual oil but the set up itself. We had put in a manual ball valve switch, but it was letting air in somehow… so we put the pollak valve back on… we aren’t sure why this was happening, obviously something to do with the changes we made… it is possible that using different size lines throughout the system allows air intake/ cavitating? Or maybe placing the valve higher than it was previously, or after the little hand primer pump? Hmmm, not sure what the problem was, but its all good now anyway…
    Tim, we have taken your advice and have left out the boost pump for now, will see how we go. She is actually just a H engine, not a 2H as you said, is there much difference between the two?

    The issue that we are up against now is where to tap into the coolant line to run water through the HE??? This sounds really dodge, but I’m tempted to just pull out the heater lines which run straight into the cab and use them!! Maybe a better option is just to put a t-piece on the heater line- one immediately after it comes out of the engine with a tap to switch on and off as we need, the other to feed the coolant back into the heater outlet line… hope that makes sense… Suggestions? I’ve had a look at lots of pictures around the forum, but they mostly tend to focus on the HE itself and not on where the coolant comes from… if someone could point me in the right direction I’ll be cheering!!
    Ahh I have more questions but gotta run, again, thanks for the support, what an amazing community!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: HJ45 troopy- Taking first breaths in the big wide world of SVO!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Troopetta View Post
    Hello again,
    Wow, thanks so much for the feedback, free information is such a treat!!! Ok so she was chugging away ok for a little while on SVO, then she spluttered a bit and we have since swapped back to diesel(flushed all the lines ok) because we thought that the problem wasn’t with the actual oil but the set up itself. We had put in a manual ball valve switch, but it was letting air in somehow… so we put the pollak valve back on… we aren’t sure why this was happening, obviously something to do with the changes we made… it is possible that using different size lines throughout the system allows air intake/ cavitating? Or maybe placing the valve higher than it was previously, or after the little hand primer pump? Hmmm, not sure what the problem was, but its all good now anyway…
    Tim, we have taken your advice and have left out the boost pump for now, will see how we go. She is actually just a H engine, not a 2H as you said, is there much difference between the two?

    The issue that we are up against now is where to tap into the coolant line to run water through the HE??? This sounds really dodge, but I’m tempted to just pull out the heater lines which run straight into the cab and use them!! Maybe a better option is just to put a t-piece on the heater line- one immediately after it comes out of the engine with a tap to switch on and off as we need, the other to feed the coolant back into the heater outlet line… hope that makes sense… Suggestions? I’ve had a look at lots of pictures around the forum, but they mostly tend to focus on the HE itself and not on where the coolant comes from… if someone could point me in the right direction I’ll be cheering!!
    Ahh I have more questions but gotta run, again, thanks for the support, what an amazing community!
    I've heard of the H engine, but not sure how different they are. I thought they were an industrial engine in forklifts. Do the pictures in the engine manual I gave you a link to in the previous posting look like your engine. Look in particular for the fuel system section and look at the lift pump. In fact, I have modified the manual to be searchable, so search for Lift Pump, and all will be revealed.

    The little hand primer pump does more than just be a primer. The chunk of metal that it screws into is called the lift pump. that lift pump provides the necessary pressure for the Injection pump to work effectively. Pressure specs in an earlier posting.

    Much more likely, in fact guaranteed, is your thought that you have an air leak. They are pains to get rid of. Use #2 non hardening sealant around your brass fittings to minimise the risk of pesky air leaks.

    Re the Heat exchanger. You mean you've not installed it yet, and you're running on veggie???

    I'll let that one go through to the keeper.

    No need to remove your inside heater. The heat exchanger is connected in parallel to your heater.

    This means:
    Locate your heater tap. That is a cable controlled tap on a heater line that goes from the engine, probably the front near the thermostat housing, and goes in through the firewall. The heater tap will be close to the firewall. This is your hot line.

    Then there is another line coming from the firewall and back onto the motor. Probably onto the inlet to the water pump. This is your cold or return line.

    Hot water comes out of the top of the engine, through the heater core which warms up your toes, and back into the engine.
    You want exactly the same thing to happen for your heat exchanger.

    SO....
    Locate the Hot line and put a brass T piece in between the engine outlet and the heater tap. Run a piece of hose from this T piece onto the heat exchanger. Choose the connection on the heat exchanger that is closest to the OUTLET or Discharge or HOT side of the heat exchanger connection for the veggie oil.
    This will allow hot coolant to flow at all times into the heat exchanger. It will not interfere with the cabin heater.

    Now, locate the cold, or return, line of the heater core. Put a brass T piece into that and join this brass T piece with a bit of heater hose to the last remaining connection on the Heat Exchanger. This will be adjacent to the inlet or suction side of the veggie side of things on the heat exchanger.

    Now you have a route for the coolant to flow at all times.
    It is routed contra flow, ie, the two fluids flow in opposite directions to ensure the greatest heat transfer. Make sure the HE is free of air in both galleries and feel free to mount it whereever. It is supposed to be mounted upright, ie, with a pair of connections higher than the other pair of connections. This makes sense to allow any air to easily bleed out.

    But tell me, this is a little test , what is it that you must coat each of the brass fittings with before you put any hose on, both Coolant and veggie???

    Job done.

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 20th December 2011 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Added even more commetary
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

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