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Thread: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Wellard
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    78

    Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Hi Folks

    Ive had some issues with starting my rodeo the last few years but had sort of resolved it although now a problem has come up that I cant seem to solve. It happens on dino or bio so i will explain the situation.

    The 4jb1 model I have has a thermo switch that controls the Cold Start Device on pump (CSD) and glow plug system, with the CSD operating at 5 degrees or less (so I have read). ANyway this was not working so we decided to power the CSD directly (toggle switch) and also the glow plugs via a toggle switch (but using existing wiring through the relay box).

    The problem is now that when i try to start the rodeo, it ALWAYS need the glow plugs to be activated for a short to long period before it fires. It needs to be particularly on for a long time ( ~30 secs) in colder weather. And then when firing it runs quite rough (and white smoke etc) until the pump seems to kick in properly (CSD?). Then it all runs beautiful.

    However after a long run (and the engine is hot) - if I stop, turn it off, then start again, it DOES NOT fire without using the glow plugs for 5 secs or so. This seems quite odd as previously it used to fire straight away no glow plugs when hot.

    Anyway I have checked the glow plugs and current and it is all good.

    Can anyone suggest what might be the issue here between pump and glow plugs?

    Much appreciated,

    FB

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Great Western
    Posts
    48

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    G'day Farmboy,

    I am a fellow 4JB1t owner running B100. I have had a few problems over the last three years, mainly a full engine rebuild this time last year as the result of a burnt out piston (search for the thread if you are interested in learning what happened). I have concluded (not 100%, lets say 90%) that my fuel was not to blame for the piston failing but a culmination of 1/ not changing the air filter - I have since leant that air flow in critical to turbo diesel motors 2/ driving the ute as hard as it would go, even with a trailer on the back - big no no since I have fitted an exaust temperature gauge (Pyrometer) on the reco engine and it is a real education to keep an eye on exaust temps pulling a trailer up a hill = you really need to change down and take it easy not to exceed 600c for too long.

    Back to your problem. I had some starting issues back when the motor was about to give up, I assume due to loss of compression on one cylinder before it totally failed and self fuelled, red-lining on the side of the road before I stalled it - pretty scary. My CSD device only ever kicked in at sub zero temperature which I thought was normal when I bought the ute but eventually worked out that it should be kicking in a lot more than it was. Apparently the sender units in the thermostat house are notorious for stuffing up and even new ones are generally dodgy. the auto elec I was dealing with had three new ones to return that were faulty when he tested them - never fitted to vehicles still in their packaging. I have since fitted a good one and it has made a heck of a difference to stating. I made the mistake of pulling the terminal off the sender unit and left it disconnected over winter twice to get the glow system to function. Another big no-no as the indicator light on the dash turns off but aparently the glow plugs still stay on at half power until the motor warms up a bit. The result being I was driving around for months with the glow plugs still on pushing up combustion chamber temps even further. Couped together with a very clogged air filter and pushing the ute too hard distoyed the engine in a couple of years. Bio also burns a bit hotter in the combustion chamber (about 30c higher apparently) due to a more complete burn of the fuel due to oxygen being present in the fuel chemistry.
    Without really understanding the CSD workings in the pump it sounds like there may be something going there, not sure if electrical or something to do with the workings of the pump. One thing I have learnt in the last three years is to shell out on a fuel additive that will keep bacteria in check in your fuel system as I have had brown sludge in the bottom of filters as a result of bacterial digestion of fuel over time. I am positive it is not soap or glycerol and now religiously put some into each finished batch as if it builds up over time inside the injector pump it would eventually bring things to a stop. I am not sure if this is worth considering for your problem but one more thing that is worth a thought.
    Not much help for your problem but hopefully someone else will be of help. keep at it, Al

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    numurkah
    Posts
    579

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Hi farm boy
    check the all the easy stuff, filters, fuel lines, oil level, oil colour, oil filler cap no water in there? coolant level, no oil or air bubbles in there? exhaust gasses not steaming out the back? If all is good, get your battery and starter motor tested, even a small percent of lost cranking speed can make a worn diesel engine hard to start.

    ha ha why when I push the percent button do I get this % ?
    Last edited by smithw; 6th February 2012 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Wellard
    Posts
    78

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    thanks for your feedback guys.

    I think maybe I might have caused some issues with the engine as u have discussed Al. I too disconnected the thermo switch for a while there, which helped with cold starts and idling. However i never knew the glow plugs were still operating in the background.

    It seems like over time by doing this (disconnecting thermo) - the symptoms have gotten worse, like the CSD is hardly functioning or is very dodgy now.

    My question is Al - what kind of damage may have been caused by having the thermo switch disconnected like i did? You mention high combustion chamber temps? COuld this damage be somehow related to my current problem of cold starting and plumes of white smoke - almost like its overfuelling? Also rough idle. This is even with the CSD being powered on but is not helping now.

    It is odd because on a hot day (30oC) it will fire up straight away (although I need to use glow plugs for 10 secs), but in colder weather its struggles to reach 1000 rpms (hovers around 300-400 and spews white smoke before finally kicking in to 1000rpms - like the CSD has just worked).

    cheers

    FB

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,243

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    The cold start device retards the pump timing for easier cold starts. Shouldn't make any difference unless it is really cold and then the glow plugs need to be good anyway. I was stuck on a one lane sandy track on the long weekend due to a split on the inside of the diesel inlet hose letting in air. Changed to a new hose and away we went. Took a bit of finding though. Bio did it to the hose so worth a check.
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
    Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,372

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Diesel diagnosis 101
    Cold starts with lots of white smoke - Most likely due to poor GP function. Remove and check each GP for red glow with battery connected directly across the GP. GPs can draw normal current and yet not provide the high temperatures needed for reliable cold starting.

    This would also support your poor starting issues and the fact that it is hard to rev up when cold, but as the Combustion chambers heat up, the engine will start to rev freely.

    Just my 2c worth

    Best wishes,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Great Western
    Posts
    48

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Farmboy,
    I am a backyard hack when it comes to diesels, learning as I go (sometimes at substantial financial cost re: engine rebuild...)
    The auto electrician I deal with told me about the glow plug system and how they work. He seemed to think that having them running all the time (with the sender unit diconnected) would have increased combustion temps a bit. As I mentioned, this in conjuction with my other mistakes must have really pushed the temps way too far resulting in the pistons failing. What damage could have been done in your case is pretty hard to know. If like me (in the past anyway) you drive it as hard as it will go (like a petrol motor) then things could be getting a bit hot. I can't really see how this would be giving you consistent cold starting issues. I would be more inclined to take a look at your glow plugs (put them across a battery and make sure they glow red as Tony suggests) and possibly get your injectors looked at. A deisel mechanic who i also had a bit to do with this time last year (expensive buggers they are too) reckoned injectors should have some attention (testing/replacement) every 100,000; but he would say that wouldn't he...
    Again, my recommendation would be to fit an EGT gauge. Pretty good insurance for all TD operators. If you are concerned about what is going on in your combustion chambers I wonder if there is some sort of little camera type turn-out that could go in through the glow plug or injector ports so you could see what the piston crowns look like. I would imagine the modern deisel mechanic would have this sort of equipement. In my case all pistons had cracks in the same place and one had gone through the crown down the side to the gudgen pin, burning the retaining clip through permitting the gudgen pit to float about in the bore. The piston finally cracked / burnt through the bottom resulting in oil passing through the hole in the combustion chamber self fuelling the other three cylinders with the engine reving to infinity before I stalled it - I only then worked out something was seriously wrong.
    So, maybe take it to a deisel mechanic and get some perfessional advice. Not sure how to handle that one as they will automaticall blame your fuel regardless of what the problem is. You can always fill it with fossil diesel and initially not mention anything about using your own fuel and then bring it into the conversation after he has looked over things first. Good luck, keep us posted. Al

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    South Coast, NSW
    Posts
    870

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    fuel system vacuum leak. been there done that. buy a walbro boost pump and mount it at the tank and ull never have these issues again. Air leaks suck big time test the lines now trust me.
    Cheers
    Nick.
    Harold 2002 Toyota Landcruiser 105 series. 4.2lt turbo glide turbo, Too lazy to make bio nowdays times money. 3'' lift.

    Roidio 2001 Holden Rodeo 4x4 2.8L TD. 2.5" exhaust sytem, H/E shower system. 4" Lift, Airbags, And lots of fruit, B100 for 55,000 . SOLD

    Elsa 1983 Mercedes-Benz W123 300D. Still The Fastest Merc in Oz, Self built and Female proofed. COUSINS NOW

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Townsville, North Queensland
    Posts
    649

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Sounds to me like a fuel issue.
    Normally with lots of white smoke on a cold start I would have said failed glow plugs, but white smoke can also be caused by air in the system. Anyone that has looked out the back while trying to drive with a clogged fuel filter will have seen this.

    Your problem sounds to me like, if you have one that is, the diaphram primer is cactus. 2 things happen to these things. The little leaf valves can get stuck open with krudd under them and this lets the fuel drain back to the tank. Second thing is bio distroyes the rubber over time. I think mine lasted about 3 years before it started to give problems. It didn't leak fuel, but was letting air in and being the highest point in the fuel line was letting the fuel drain out of the IP back to the tank. This then required several seconds more cranking than normal for a start.

    Why you have to glow for several seconds when hot is a real mystery. Not being formiluar with the glow system makes it hard to see how that could make any differance.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    333

    Re: Weird Starting Issue with 2.8TD Rodeo - 1997

    Check the compression if all else fails. Good compression is necessary to achieve a high enough temperature to cause combustion. The white smoke could indicate unburnt fuel from one or more cylinders. Using the glow plugs when the engine is hot can mask lack of compression.

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