Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 43

Thread: Using unfiltered oil

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    225

    Using unfiltered oil

    I'm a newbie to SVO, having been a biodiesel maker for some years. Since I haven't quite got my bio mfg system set up yet, however, and I happened to come across a heap of WVO, I thought I'd give SVO a go - using a single tank system with oil that has been washed down with 10% waste fuel from a garage.

    As a filtering medium I used cotton cloth. It looked sufficiently fine to do the job, and took forever to filter into the tank, even when heated. But then - clogged fuel filters.

    Based on some of the sophisticated filter setups I've now seen on this site, none of you are probably surprised by this. So now I have to either set one of these systems up, or put one into the car, and let the car do all the filtering for me. The plan is that when I fill the car I only use a coarse filter (like a Chux) and Bob's your uncle.

    Has anyone else designed an in-car filtration system? I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

    Anyhow, here's my plan. The fuel line is split into two, goes through 2 el-cheapo paper element fuel filters before recombining after 2 more valves.

    In normal operation, teh fuel is flowing through one of the filters only. When it gets clogged (or whenever I feel like it), I do a backwash. This opens the other line, passing fuel through the other element, through a pump that is teed off the main line, backwards through the first filter, and then to waste. The auxiliary pump has another tee going back into the main line, and is hopefully generating enough pressure that it can continue to suppy the main fuel pump while it is backwashing (so it can be done while the car is running).

    I also intend putting a CAV filter in line too, to catch any thing that will separate under gravity.

    Few questions - what is the pore size of those paper filters, and what is the pore size of the standard fuel filters in most cars (300D and Pajero in my case)?

    Also, where do you get 3-way valves (I need 6 in total) - I can only find them on EBay for $57 which sonds a bit rich.

    Cheers
    Mark

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lismore NSW
    Posts
    384

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    G'Day mark,

    What you are planning sounds okay in theory, but if you think of all the bit an pieces that could cause trouble, imagine yourself on a trip where you have to be on time or on a long road trip and all of the sudden the car stops. okay bonnet up, filter clogged, no worries change the filter, start again, 5 km further, car stops again, hmmm wasn't the filter what else. Meanwhile the time is ticking or the family is starting to get upset about the situation and so forth. In my opinion in car filtering is something you want to think about twice. I don't know your availability of space at home, but two 44's as a upflow system and a 5 micron filter on the outlet before it goes in your tank sounds easier and more cost efficient.
    At the moment I am setting up a system my wife and I can use when traveling, I am using a centrifuge and a extra tank, the wvo we pick up during the travels gets pump through a filter in the extra tank. As we are traveling along the a pump cycles the oil through the centrifuge and when we get to our next destination we have clean oil. So we than just transfer it into the main WVO tank. This system has been used by other people and is quite hassle free since you are not messing with fuel lines, filters and the like to much. My hilux is set up with a two tank system, and I had a scenario chasing a air leak for ages, as I use my truck for work, its not a good thing to be late al the time because your filter is leaking air or something is clogged and you can't find it on the side of the road. I have had some issues with the old CAV so I stay away from them.

    hope that helps, by the way I was looking a 3 way valves and the manual once here in Lismore are around $60 for a 3/8" size one.

    Happy designing.

    Jens
    1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

    1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

    2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

    "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    225

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Hi Jens,

    I don't think you've quite understood my setup. The idea is that any filter will clog eventually if only run in one direction. On the industrial systems I work on, it is unacceptable to be always changing media, so we run a backwash. This is where clean water from the other filter (of the pair) is run through the filter BACKWARDS. This unclogs the filter and makes it useable again.

    I'm proposing the same system for my car. There are two filters in parallel. At any one time only one is being used. Every now and then it gets backflushed, with clean fuel coming through the other filter. The only question I have at the moment is how frequently this would need to be done, and can it be done while the car is running. The frequency of the backflush is determined by the filter capacity, and type. Sand filters are particularly good for this type of thiing, so I'm currently looking into that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Brisbane SEQ
    Posts
    715

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Mark

    In theory this sounds like a good option.
    You are going to need two or more tanks and one having good clean fuel to use for the back flush. you will also need filter assemblies that will allow back flushing.
    In a water environment you will likely have clean water to back flush with . In the engine compartment you will need clean fuel to back flush with.


    You will need a motor to back flush with so will have to have a bypass function with your pusher pump so you can change the flow direction back to the tank. You are also going to have to route the dirty fuel you have just flushed to a storage of some kind or get blocked filters again or worse still have a build up in your tanks.

    Draw up a diagram and post for critique. you will find many feedback options.

    Good luck

    Michael
    97 Jeep XJ Cherokee on B100. 0 km's on B100 and counting !!!! (Sold)
    2002 Merc ML270 now on B100. (Sold)
    2006 Ssangyong Musso 2.9 t idi (Sold)
    2015 NP300 Navara ( Sold )
    2018 NP300 Navara ( B5 )

    Stainless processor with blue water pump.
    Tetragonula Hockingsi

    Take the Leap and grow wings on the way down

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    225

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Yes, what to do with the backflush is my biggest question for now. If I put it back to the start (as I would in an industrial setting) it'll just build up and increase the load on the system. I could dump it on the road, but I'm not keen on that for several reasons. Or I could have a small tank to collect it, which is probably what I'll do. It all depends on the timing of the cycles. My experience is that backflushes need only be short - 10 seconds or so - so that may be feasible.

    Where's the best place to get 3 way valves from $57 a pop on EBay seems a bit rich

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    296

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Search out Jeffrey S. Brooks on the internet - he has a forum, I think.

    He had/has a back-flushing system in place, I seem to remember.
    1987 Mercedes W124 300D
    1997 Ssangyong Musso Wagon

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    933

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Sounds an interesting idea Dr Mark.

    The way most of us have been approaching filtering is to make the best out of vehicle system we can. This avoids putting gunk into our tanks that settles out, or forms lumps with the fats and is just a real nuisance. The fine brown stuff that is possibly flour is our enemy and clogs the vehicle filters. Excellent at home filtering also avoids filter changes on the road, which even tho they can be quite quick, are an annoyance. Space for extra filters is always an issue too.

    I understand your aim is to avoid on road filter changes, which is what makes your idea interesting.

    Regarding the OEM filtration, we hear various ratings of between 5 and 15 micron.
    The best of the home based filtration systems work on 1 micron, in order to reduce onboard filter changes to a minimum.
    Certainly the view of Alex Noack from Greasenergy, see write up in another recent thread, was that you should never rely on the OEM filters as 'the' filter for the engine. It should be regarded as a tool of last resort in order to provide the greatest protection for the internals of the injection pump.

    Jeffrey S Brooks frequented the blending section of the forum until he was banned. He presented and defended his otherwise interesting ideas in a way that led him to being banned, but nevertheless some of the ideas themselves had merit.

    Our next WARFA meeting might be another place you could talk over these ideas. Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association for dates.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    829

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mark View Post
    Yes, what to do with the backflush is my biggest question for now. If I put it back to the start (as I would in an industrial setting) it'll just build up and increase the load on the system. I could dump it on the road, but I'm not keen on that for several reasons. Or I could have a small tank to collect it, which is probably what I'll do. It all depends on the timing of the cycles. My experience is that backflushes need only be short - 10 seconds or so - so that may be feasible.

    Where's the best place to get 3 way valves from $57 a pop on EBay seems a bit rich
    For the 3 way valves check out Omar's listings - i think he is still on the forum or also sells on EBAY - i have a number of his filters and they are very good.

    What sort of car are you going to be putting all this gear into - you will need a lot of room for this much equipment.

    I think you also need to ask yourself why you would do this type of filtering - what do you hope to gain ? The only advantage i can see is if you are planning on long trips and collecting on the road - and i would still be dubious about the benefit there over an off-board filtering solution.

    If space is an issue at home look at a centrifuge based system - it probably will not end up costiing much more than what you will end up paying.

    If it is to make sure you do not get stopped by the side of the road by a blocked filter - then there are better ways to achieve this - some of which need to be built into any sort of system anyway.

    Your WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is going to be very low with a system as complex as this - the more complex the harder it is to find and resolve problems.

    Lastly - those cheap paper filters you were talking about - i assume you mean the toilet roll/hand paper towel systems that are designed as bypass oil filter systems for the cars engine ? I use one on my suburban for Bypass engine filtering and they are brilliant for their intended use - i tried one with oil as an experiment and the flow rate could not keep up with my engine as the primary filter and i found that if the oil was wet it started to make channels through the paper and was not filtered well at all.

    If you did want to go down the route you are saying then i would look at some of the whole of house filters and use them in series - say one with a 100 micron filter, then the next with say 20 micron and then a final 5 micron - but you are then going to need multiple pressure gauges and bypasses.

    Craig
    Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
    210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

    Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

    30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
    Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

    50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,226

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Interesting idea, however my experience with backflushing blocked filters (at home not on the road) has found that the backflow seems to shift a little patch of dirt/fat/stuff and very soon after re-using it again it blocks as before. Not worth doing I decided, especially as filters are so cheap. These days with a 4 drum upflow system my filters never seem to block. On the road filtering has been discussed before on this forum. I use this (see pic) it has been good for 2 big trips totalling 20000ks. That is a 15 litre container.
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
    Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    225

    Re: Using unfiltered oil

    Thanks for the replies and suggestions. The car I will be doing this on is an old Pajero, so plenty of space to add stuff. The plan is to have two el cheapo paper filters for my backwash setup and a Frantz 1 micron downstream to catch any fine stuff that gets through. I used to run a similar system on my landcruiser a while ago (on bio) and found that I only had to change the Frantz element once every 3 months. I'll chase up some of those contacts for the valves as well

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •