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Thread: running wVo question

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: running wVo question

    Squidlips,

    Please read the FAQ at the top of the forum, http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...place-to-start and the links "things that can go wrong"

    All VE injection pumps suffer from cavitation on the lift pump if they need to suck too hard. Reducing the need for the lift pump to suck too hard can be achieved in several ways. My choice was to increase the fuel line to 12mm. The small section inside the fuel tank remains standard, but this is only a small section and hard to change. The major length of the restriction is in the regular 10mm fuel line. I am talking about 100% WVO, whereas I think Peter1 is talking about a blend. It's the viscosity that is the issue. If you reduce the viscosity by blending then the need to reduce restrictions is less. You can also reduce viscosity in the fuel supply lines by heating the fuel lines with coolant heated Hose on Hose system, or hose in hose if you're game.

    I agree with everyone, injector line heaters are of no benefit here in Aus. If you want to insulate your injectors lines, then go ahead, but adding electrical energy input - pointless. Heating the filter with an electrical wrap is common overseas. You can do it here if you want, but seriously, the issue you must focus on is viscosity, not how hot the oil is. If you achieve the required viscosity via blending, then there is no need to heat anything.

    You should remove the gauze filter from inside the Landcruiser fuel tank and replace it with a serviceable gauze filter prior to the lift pump to protect the pump. Especially if you are having problems as described in the FAQ; get rid of that in tank filter. You will notice the return line goes to the same place in the fuel tank as the feed line. In this case, you can use the 10mm steel line as a return line and decommission the 8mm, replacing it by running 12mm ID fuel line if you're going to run thick oil. Nylon air line is a cheap alternative to rubber, lasts well and is smooth and slippery internally. It is measured OD, rubber is measured ID.

    I'm getting a bit confused about what vehicle you are talking about. First it was a Nissan 4.2, now I see you are having problems with a troopie. Which engine? 2H or 1HZ? I'm guessing 1HZ as the 2H has no return line.
    If it's a 1HZ, then all the principles that applied to the Nissan 4.2 will apply to the LC 1HZ.

    I think someone suggested getting rid of the Facet. I agree. It's one of the ones that go tick tick tick isn't it? i.e. not a motor driven pump. I had one with an engine with a return line and it caused so much restriction, IT was the cause of the grief. They work fine on diesel as an assistance to provide fuel to the lift pump inside the IP. They are NOT effective on 100% oil, and I suspect any blends probably apart from the common 10% ULP 90% WVO. If you can get away with no electrical pump in line, by thinning the oil, or increasing fuel line size, or both, then that is by far the better solution. Some users have found effective pumps for 100% veggie and heavy blends, and there have been several threads in the past on this topic. It's also referred to in the FAQ. I can assure you it is much easier to avoid the need for one completely.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: running wVo question

    Squidlips,

    I don't have a VE pump, but I understand there is a fine gauze filter inside the inlet banjo to the Injection pump, and it's only visible if you look into the hole. If that is partially blocked, you may be experiencing starvation on thicker oils, but not on light fuel like diesel. I also understand there is a filter on the return banjo, again it is not easy to find. Even tho you have a CF, there may have been build up from times gone past.

    But before you start poking around at the IP, follow the suggestions the others have made re blending and addressing viscosity related issues.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    17

    Re: running wVo question

    Hi Tim.
    Thanks for that it is much appreciated.
    Yes sorry for the confusion with vehicles.
    It is the 2001 4.2 HZJ Troopy I am having problems with & the GQ we just bought to see what is required before we switch to WVO.
    I have only been using 100% WVO.
    Ok so you think it is worthwhile changing out the 10mm for 12mm line even though the pick up lines are 10mm. Yeh I took out the end strainer in the tank some time ago so I will change out rest to 12mm.
    I thought that with the viscosity issue if you heat the oil it reduces the viscosity ?
    Yes the Facet pump is one of those that goes tick tick tick.
    Well I will replace the lines with 12mm and flag the Facet & see what happens ?
    So the only question remains for me is the oil itself & if well settling & centrifuge are enough ?
    I am not familiar with the "drying " process ?
    I will go back & have a look at the FAQ's & see what I can find.
    Thanks heaps for the posts I appreciate everyones help.
    Cheers,
    Squidlips.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: running wVo question

    Quote Originally Posted by Squidlips View Post
    Hi Tim.
    Thanks for that it is much appreciated.
    Yes sorry for the confusion with vehicles.
    It is the 2001 4.2 HZJ Troopy I am having problems with & the GQ we just bought to see what is required before we switch to WVO.
    I have only been using 100% WVO.
    Ok so you think it is worthwhile changing out the 10mm for 12mm line even though the pick up lines are 10mm. Yeh I took out the end strainer in the tank some time ago so I will change out rest to 12mm.
    I thought that with the viscosity issue if you heat the oil it reduces the viscosity ?
    Yes the Facet pump is one of those that goes tick tick tick.
    Well I will replace the lines with 12mm and flag the Facet & see what happens ?
    So the only question remains for me is the oil itself & if well settling & centrifuge are enough ?
    I am not familiar with the "drying " process ?
    I will go back & have a look at the FAQ's & see what I can find.
    Thanks heaps for the posts I appreciate everyones help.
    Cheers,
    Squidlips.
    Squidlips,

    Thanks for the clarification re your engine.
    You're really pushing your luck trying to run a 1Hz on 100% without reducing viscosity somehow.
    The system sold by Alexander Noack (ANC, Greasenergy, Elsbett) with modified nozzles works well if you want to continue down this route.

    Yes, I DO think changing out your supply lines to 12mm is necessary. As I said before, the VE pump sucks well, but if it is relied on to pull thick oil through cold filters and small lines, you risk the cavitation that owners try to mask by adding an external lift pump. This includes those routinely using diesel. In my experience a Facet will NOT be effective in your setup with 100% WVO, and I don't know off the top of my head what pump will be.

    I am not worried about the short length of 10mm line inside the OEM fuel tank, but when building a new tank, I installed 12mm inside the tank. Often we cannot make things perfect, but reducing problems as much as possible always helps. I run 12mm everywhere there is cold oil, 10mm everywhere there is hot oil. I use 10mm OD nylon air line for the biodiesel on the start up tank (I run a two tank system with my DI motor) It's like a fuse, or a puddle on a highway. It's not the short section of restriction that governs the degree of drag on the IP internal lift pump, it's the overall length, its cumulative.

    Yes, heating the oil reduces the viscosity.
    So does blending it.
    You can do either, or both.

    Yes, settling and centrifuging will be excellent.


    Before worrying about a drying process, test the oil using a hot pan test. It's described well in many WVO discussion forums.

    The FAQ contains much useful information and links, and it's an important place to start.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    17

    Re: running wVo question

    Hi Tim.
    Thanks for that, wicked mate.
    I have some high temp 12mm line on the way from Enzed so I hope to swap out this week, bypass the Facet pump & see how it goes.
    Yes I have the Elsbett kit with injector nozzles & larger glow plugs.
    What I did forget to say is that the starving & loss of power symptoms are happening running on diesel while I am trying to find the blockage/flow problem so it's got me stuffed really but I am working my way through each component by isolating the lot, running straight from the tank to the IP & introducing each one back into the system one by one to hopefully show up where the problem lies.
    Yes I have done the hot pan test & there is not so much as a crackle right up to the oil smoking in the pan so pretty happy on that score.
    I have had a look through the FAQ's but having can't seem to quite find what I am looking for but will persevere.
    So while I work my way through that on the troopy I am looking at the GQ & from what was said earlier it seems it is VO friendly without much more that a FPHE ?
    What are your thoughts there Tim. I guess try it & find out ?
    I really do appreciate all the input guys so please keep it coming !
    Cheers,
    Squidlips

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: running wVo question

    Squidlips,

    This is getting far more complex as we go along. Can we deal with one vehicle at a time; the best one..... the Landcruiser....... :-)

    So, is the Elsbett kit fitted?
    Has it been running effectively?
    For how long and on what fuel?

    The Enzed line. This is the twin walled blue stuff I imagine. Expensive!! I have it as 10mm under the bonnet. I found it VERY difficult to push onto normal brass fittings. Doable, but hard. I think it has a nylon inner which doesn't stretch at all. The blue outer is highly susceptible to turning sticky from either biodiesel or veggie oil. I suspect the former, but sections of mine are simply a blue gooey mess. The inner remains okay and there has been no leaks. I've had several leaks at joins with other hoses and bio sprayed onto the blue hose, causing the goo. Not trying to put you off using it. It's fine under the bonnet. So, by the way is ordinary quality rubber fuel hose.

    Once you have removed the Toyota filter in the tank, and run new hose all the way through to the filter. Replaced the filter, checked the primer pump on top of the filter for leaking air, checked the inlet and outlet of the IP for the very fine filters there and cleaned them, and you still have problems on diesel, then the conclusion could be that your IP is stuffed. Or at least the lift pump side. If the problem is resolved by adding an external electrical primer pump to add positive pressure of up to 5psi or so, then this confirms the diagnosis. You might get away with a rebuild of only the lift pump section, but no doubt an IP shop will want to do the whole lot. And possibly quite rightfully too. If you have been starving the engine, and therefore the IP of fuel, it is possible the main rotary thingy is worn too.

    I have no experience with Nissans. I suggest you follow the guide at http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...ed-Cooking-Oil which provides a matrix, or selection chart. As far as I know, the Nissan 4.2 and 1HZ have no inherent differences that would impact their ability to run WVO. They are both IDI, they both use VE IP pumps. There may be differences in the OEM fuel hose size, filter capacity, but fundamentally you can follow the same principles with both of them. Peter1 has plenty of experience with these motors, and has provided clear feedback.

    I have realised the recent changes to the structure of the forum has resulted in all the old internal links failing to work in the FAQ. Until I can change them, in the address line, change /svo_users/ to /threads/ and they all work as expected, I hope. The main ones I think might be useful regarding oxidation inside tanks are http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...il_photos.html and http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...fuel_tank.html

    I thought I saw a photo of the inside of your fuel tank, maybe another thread, and it showed up clean. This is good, and you have nothing more to do. If you get something on your fuel pick and you fuel level gauge, as long as it still works, there's nothing to fuss over. It 'MAY' be the low current that is flowing through the level that increases oxidation. We have no definitive answer either way. If you have a tank full of crud, as in the photos at http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...il_photos.html then this is BBBAD. It doesn't just affect the fuel tanks. This is from a Nissan IP. http://www.warfa.asn.au/images/Clogg...ion%20Pump.jpg


    Tim
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 21st April 2014 at 08:35 PM.
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: running wVo question

    Quote Originally Posted by Squidlips View Post
    I have ordered some 12mm ( 1/2 " ) from Enzed heat resistant line. Not cheap at $31.00 a meter but may as well go the good stuff as the $12 line does seem to not last. I just hope the extra diameter will clamp down on to the existing steel hose tails & banjo fittings.
    Just reading back over the series of posts and found this one. I suggest the blue Parker hose from Enzed will not squish onto anything. It's actually designed for push in fittings IIRC, not for pushing over brass or steel line. If the steel fuel line is not big enough, you may need to silver solder/braze a 12mm brass fitting onto the banjo in order for it to join up. I found a MAPP gas gun from Bunnings has been an excellent investment over the years for making all sorts of modified brass fittings. In particular you can join several fittings together if needed, instead of several sections of hose, with the inherent clamps, potential fail points etc. It's also a kickarse camp fire lighter and puts those pansy cigarette lighters well back in their place :-)

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    300

    Re: running wVo question

    Quote Originally Posted by Squidlips View Post
    Hi peter1.
    Thanks do much for the reply/post to my question about running a GQ.
    Absolute gold & music to my ears.
    So bear with me while I just to go over what you said.
    Stock standard GQ with maybe just a flat plate heat exchanger & possibly a winter bend of 10% ulp ? Sounds dam good to me. I do like your philosophy of keeping it simple mate !
    I fully settle my oil in cubies for up to six months & gravity feed the oil to my raw power centrifuge. The pick up line for the gravity feed stops above the 150 litre mark so I never take up anything from the bottom. Is that enough as I was wondering now what exactly is the process you use to "dry" your oil & should I be doing that as well ?
    Hi Squid,

    I tried replying here several times and also sending a PM but not sure if that got through either?

    This is the processing system I use to dry my oil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs
    Let me know if you got the PM or not or message me with your direct email if it didn't go through.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    28

    Re: running wVo question

    I know this is old, Only just touching base with the forum after moving from WA to QLD.. Its been a while..

    Tim and Tony are your wealth of knowledge in this area, but if you need some direct advise on Nissan's send me a message.

    -Merv
    Nissan Patrol 2007 CRD 3.0l

    Pre-heated oil - Blended Injection Pre-Rail - Flash Tuned for efficancy

    2004 TD42T Nissan Patrol - Wife Proof ( Electronic change over / temp control / auto purge etc )

    100% SVO since 2006 - SIMPLE NO FUSS Setup. 5 West to East to West Crossings, Numerous Adventures, and Many Weekend Trips... 350 000 kms + on SVO and counting

    Conversions to date :
    1 x Nissan CRD 3.0l, 2007

    2 x Nissan RD2.8t 1998,1999
    4 x Nissan 4.2TD 1996,2001,2004,2006
    2 x Ford Ranger (pre TDCi) 2004,2006
    2 x Toyota Trayback Commercials 3l TD : Both 2000+ Imports Di's
    1 x Electric Start 8hp Cement Mixer - NON TURBO !!!
    1 x 5hp Water Pump - Also NON TURBO !!!!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    17

    Re: running wVo question

    Hello all!
    Well it has been many miles and quite some time since I have been back to this forum.
    So.... update. Elsbette single tank system working a treat. My previous fuel starving problem proved to be a blocked IP filter. You know that little mesh sucker located right down below the injector inlet that's a pain to get out until you realise the trick?
    Well I got it out finally using a stiff piece of wire with a small bend to catch the edge and pull it out.
    I was surprised any fuel got through! Man I closed the end and could not blow air through it! Also facet pump screen needs regular cleaning and was also a flow rate problem. Been working a treat ever since. Elsbette primer pump also has a screen that needs an occasional clean. So all up much more familiar with basic maintenance and running the single tank system no problemo ! Gotta love those Raw Power Centrifuge ! Oh and yes I have not been so pedantic as to pass the oil through a 2 micron filter now I have complete faith in the centrifuge.
    I am currently constructing a stand alone solar & car powered cleaning station adding it into my tool trailer which will run the centrifuge via an inverter. How good is that !
    The controller for the centrifuge already turns 240v into 3 phase so now it will be 12v solar - 240v - 3 phase ! Doing the big drive over to the east coast so gonna give it a go. 2 x 340 Lt poly tanks - one for collected waste oil - small regulated pump to centrifuge - gravity feed to second poly tank. With all good oil tanks full the troopy will have 500 and whatever is in the dirty tank being cleaned as I drive or sitting there while I go for a surf/kite/dive/siesta!

    Cheers to all :-)

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