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Thread: Turning up the fuel

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    285

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    I would love to have a play around with biofuels in a common rail. Maybe when they get a bit cheaper and it isn't a major financial gamble.

    My main fear arises from anecdotal evidence from friends who live in the bush and have had bad tanks of fuel with water and other contaminants in them leading to major, costly fuel system failures. Stuff they say that would have never worried their old Land Cruisers and Hiluxes.

    Having said all of that, I suppose biofuelers have much better control over the fuel they put into their vehicles and it might even be cleaner than many servo underground storage tanks?

    Tony: do you know if tallow degrades plastics and rubber in the same fashion that vegetable oils do? Another fear I have is the submersible in-tank fuel pumps, which I assume are similar to petrol version in EFI cars, having plastic components designed for use with petroleum, but possibly not veg.

    Do you know if your tallow contact made any modifications to the existing fuel system to support tallow, other than the additional tank?

    And was tallow a decision over veg oil just because he has access to it? From your description above, it seems like veg would be a simpler setup.
    3DB
    1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
    1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016 - SOLD
    1994 Peugeot 405 SRDT 1.9L intercooled turbo diesel (Shitbox Rally car.) - B100 since August 2019 - SOLD
    @thirddegreeburns on Instagram
    @thirddegreeburns2019 on Facebook

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,372

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    3DB,
    Apart from the Tallow filter, fuel lines and tank heating systems, no abnormal modifications were made over a standard veggie conversion.
    The decision to use Tallow was based on the stability of the Tallow - no polymerisation of the fuel at the injector tips.
    This is the area he had greatest concern with.
    Your submersible fuel pump would be of no use in a Tallow system as it would not be able to operate until the Tallow melted, unless it had a temperature switch to inhibit the pump when the fuel temperature was below the melting point.


    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    lyndoch south australia
    Posts
    332

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Tony RE stability of the Tallow - no polymerisation of the fuel at the injector tips.
    do you know does this hold true for Bio made from tallow, ie is it better to make bio from tallow rather than veg. ?

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,372

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Dagwill,
    I believe that the stability of bio made from stable oils/fats is higher than bio made from less stable oils (eg polyunsaturated oils).
    There are members here who are using Biodiesel in CRD engines. Perhaps you could ask them.

    Making bio from high melting point oils/fats will give a biodiesel which has relatively high melting point also. I once had a tank of tallow based bio in my first MB 300D. It was late Summer and we had a cold snap. Overnight temperature dropped to below 20°C (I can't recall the exact temperature) and the fuel solidified. I was unable to get the fuel melted until I boiled the kettle and poured it over the fuel system in the engine bay. I had to idle the car for 20 minutes to get enough liquid fuel to start driving to work. Even then I had fuel starvation issues for another 10 minutes of driving, until a lot more fuel had melted.
    As you see, there are advantages and disadvantages.
    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    538

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Had close to the same experence Tony 2 years ago, but it was with my bus and the starter tank, as I run my engines on VO and start with BD. My BD comes from normal seed oils, then someone gave me a few drums of used tallow and I made BD out of it. It sat for the usual 3-4 months then put it in the bus and headed off to a music festival. Being Tas, it went from lovely warm weather to cold and raining. Next morning the bus wouldn't start, checked the filter and it was clogged up for the first time in years. Changed the filter switched on the starter fuel pump and nothing came out but small blobs of grease. So disconnected the fuel line and put it into a drum of diesel I carry for emergency use if we run out of bd, had to leave the pump on to push the dino into the engine and it fired. Switched to oil and drove home. next day had to take out the starter tank and heat it up to drain it. Then put the tallow bd into another drum and marked it cleanup and that's where it has sat since and will stick with oil.
    Last edited by Alga; 29th January 2016 at 12:17 PM.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,372

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Alga,
    It is great Summer fuel. I believe it has up to 10% more energy than bio made from liquid oils.

    Lesson learnt - tallow bio is no good for Autumn, Winter or Spring.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwarla View Post
    Here is some info you might find interesting.
    I haven't posted for a while. For a year or so I was working for www.gturbo.com.au where they are in full diesel performance development mode and by swapping out the standard Toyota turbo with a GTurbo unit, adding a module, bigger intercooler and exhaust, you could drive out with 250kw plus at the wheels and 800nm in a Landcruiser V8, or 1HDFTE, and come close in a 3 litre Hilux. https://youtu.be/wAZLpN-VZ8A https://www.facebook.com/Gturbo-Dies...0891624305172/
    I've moved on to calmer ventures now, but learned an awful lot about safely increasing power in diesels!

    Air flow, i.e. Turbo boost keeps EGT under control, but you can't rely on standard turbos maintaining efficiency or structural integrity at high boost, they have their limits. They don't keep gripping the air at high wheel speeds and create more heat as the air flow drops away. Plus the inadequate balancing comes into play which breaks things, and the wheels flex, also causes breakages that are difficult to fix by the roadside with cable ties! Intercoolers are useful in catching the debris :-)

    In 'theory', you add fuel, EGT go up so you add boost.
    Then add more fuel, EGT go up, so you add boost, and keep doing that until, well, you've gone too far.
    In practice, there's an awful lot of skill and knowledge to get it right.

    The great thing about diesels is that all the mods are simply to do with extra fuel and air, no internal engine mods needed.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    285

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Tim - thanks for your points - I would love to have a chat about your previous work sometime. In the meantime, I note your point about adding more boost. My wastegate is presently unmodified and the turbo produces 13.3 PSI max. I have been considering adding a bleed to increase the boost slightly.....up to, say, 15 PSI to see what the effect would be.

    Until reading your post, I had a assumed that more boost would add more heat. So that's great if I can add a couple of PSI and bring the up-hill temps down a bit (and maybe increase power further?). In your opinion, how far can you safely push a factory turbo on a 4 cylinder Japanese diesel? Mine is an IHI RHF5.
    3DB
    1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
    1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016 - SOLD
    1994 Peugeot 405 SRDT 1.9L intercooled turbo diesel (Shitbox Rally car.) - B100 since August 2019 - SOLD
    @thirddegreeburns on Instagram
    @thirddegreeburns2019 on Facebook

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    936

    Re: Turning up the fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by 3DB View Post
    Tim - thanks for your points - I would love to have a chat about your previous work sometime. In the meantime, I note your point about adding more boost. My wastegate is presently unmodified and the turbo produces 13.3 PSI max. I have been considering adding a bleed to increase the boost slightly.....up to, say, 15 PSI to see what the effect would be.

    Until reading your post, I had a assumed that more boost would add more heat. So that's great if I can add a couple of PSI and bring the up-hill temps down a bit (and maybe increase power further?). In your opinion, how far can you safely push a factory turbo on a 4 cylinder Japanese diesel? Mine is an IHI RHF5.
    That's a question I'm not comfortable answering. The is always a risk in this sort of stuff. 15psi is probably going to be okay. There may be some diesel performance forums for your engine. Is that code a turbo code or and engine code?

    As I said before, there is a maximum efficiency range for air flow in turbos, and longevity issues with balance and compressor flexing. If you a spare good turbo, an intercooler for catching the bits, and courage, then try 15psi and see what happens. You may get more power at 15psi. You might get to 18psi safely. You're unlikely to get to 25psi with a standard turbo For two reasons. It's likely to over speed and flog the bearings, which then causes the compressor wheel to hit the side of the housing. Second is that you need fuel/heat to drive the turbine, and often small injection pumps can't produce enough fuel to drive the turbo at 25 or 30 psi and really tickle up performance, no matter the turbo.

    Case in point is my 12HT Landcruiser. My main fuel screw is at maximum, I can't pour more fuel in. No matter what boost I run, my power is limited. 20psi is a happy efficient boost for this setup. Caution, that's with a GTurbo, don't run a standard CT26 turbo at more than 15psi. The GTurbo range is designed to run from 25-40psi depending on models.

    Power comes from fuel. It also creates engine killing EGT. EGT is managed by boost. So you have to turn up the fuel too for more power. You will benefit from a 2.5 or 3" exhaust too, it's all about efficient air flow.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    26

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