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Thread: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

  1. #21
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnojack View Post
    Oh the time! Must take nearly 2 minutes.
    And not to mention the NaOH/KOH you save by not using more than is required.


    I don't believe there is such thing as a foolproof anything in life, because no matter what along will come some fool and stuff it up.
    Last edited by Qwarla; 15th March 2019 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwarla View Post
    And not to mention the NaOH/KOH you save by not using more than is required.


    I don't believe there is such thing as a foolproof anything in life, because no matter what along will come some fool and stuff it up.
    Yes that's probably a fair point. I've heard it said that nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious
    Y

  3. #23
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnojack View Post
    True Tilly, titration is just so easy, why wouldn't you do it? I use tumeric, a solution of NaOH and methylated spirits.
    I am about a 10th of the way through a container of NaOH solution I mixed up 10 years ago and must have used nearly a teaspoon of tumeric in that time. Lucky I also use metho for other things as the bottles only last 3 or 4 years before cracking up.
    Oh the time! Must take nearly 2 minutes.
    Why wouldn't you do it? Because you don't have to. With this method the requirement for it has been eliminated, as the concentration of FFAs is inconsequential. Perhaps you enjoy wasting your time, but I don't.

    But, of course, the major advantage with this method is that because you don't have to heat the mixture you can scale up as much as you want. I make it 1000L at a time in an IBC.
    Last edited by Dr Mark; 19th March 2019 at 03:45 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mark View Post
    Yes that's probably a fair point. I've heard it said that nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious
    Y
    And persistent.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mark View Post
    Why wouldn't you do it? Because you don't have to. With this method the requirement for it has been eliminated, as the concentration of FFAs is inconsequential. Perhaps you enjoy wasting your time, but I don't.

    But, of course, the major advantage with this method is that because you don't have to heat the mixture you can scale up as much as you want. I make it 1000L at a time in an IBC.
    Ok so I read your blog on your method. So let's do a little review of it.
    1. Mix up KOH and methanol in open top drums with a shovel! What the! Wouldn't a chemist know how toxic that stuff is to breath in
    2. Chuck a bag of cement in with your methanol which you will later put into your expensive finely machined injection pump. Sure it settles, it's filtered but why? to save 2 minutes on titrating. More hand mixing, oh dear.
    3. You leave it for 2 days in unsealed drums for the cement to settle which you later have to spend time cleaning out and disposing of. Yet you reckon I'm wasting 2 minutes of time titrating.
    4. You bubble the result for weeks to remove the methanol. Is this not a long time as part of your easy quick method.
    5. You use 20 grams of catylist per litre. If I did that I'd use 4 times as much as normal. That costs money and reduces the yield. So what's the point? As someone who only did year 12 chemistry many years ago yet find titration a simple task I am at a loss to understand why a qualified chemis would choose to not do it and instead waste money on using more catylist than he needs.
    6. Heating sure I heat my oil some, but as it is heated by the sun and I don't have to do anything it's not an onerous task. Besides as Tilly has repeated you don't need to heat liquid oil.
    Sorry but I'll stick to my simpler method (remembering to add the base amount next time).
    Johnnojack
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  6. #26
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnojack View Post
    Ok so I read your blog on your method. So let's do a little review of it.
    1. Mix up KOH and methanol in open top drums with a shovel! What the! Wouldn't a chemist know how toxic that stuff is to breath in
    2. Chuck a bag of cement in with your methanol which you will later put into your expensive finely machined injection pump. Sure it settles, it's filtered but why? to save 2 minutes on titrating. More hand mixing, oh dear.
    3. You leave it for 2 days in unsealed drums for the cement to settle which you later have to spend time cleaning out and disposing of. Yet you reckon I'm wasting 2 minutes of time titrating.
    4. You bubble the result for weeks to remove the methanol. Is this not a long time as part of your easy quick method.
    5. You use 20 grams of catylist per litre. If I did that I'd use 4 times as much as normal. That costs money and reduces the yield. So what's the point? As someone who only did year 12 chemistry many years ago yet find titration a simple task I am at a loss to understand why a qualified chemis would choose to not do it and instead waste money on using more catylist than he needs.
    6. Heating sure I heat my oil some, but as it is heated by the sun and I don't have to do anything it's not an onerous task. Besides as Tilly has repeated you don't need to heat liquid oil.
    Sorry but I'll stick to my simpler method (remembering to add the base amount next time).
    1. Methanol is not toxic in the quantities in which one breathes using this method. It appears you have been misled.

    2. No, to dry the methoxide solution, thus increasing the concentration of catalyst to permit the procedure to be performed at room temperature. And yes, it settles, so the cement stays in the drum, and is easily disposed of later. BTW, I don't filter my bio, and hardly ever change the filters in the car.

    3. No, the drum is sealed. This is to stop atmospheric CO2 dissolving in the solution:
    • CO2 + H2O <-> H2CO3
    • H2CO3 + KOH <-> K2CO3 + H2O


    You will of course note that this process requires both the presence of water and KOH, which my drying step has removed. So the effect the CO2 would have would be to reverse, to some degree, the drying process, again employing Le Chateleir's principle. While it is tempting to conclude that the excess of drying agent would limit this process, when I was doing the initial experimentation with this method, I left a solution in a sealed drum for about a month I think, to test its stability, and when I tried it on an experimental batch it didn't work. Moreover, I could see encrustation on the edges where the K2CO3 had precipitated.

    Thus, I know that the solution is stable enough for the cement to all settle with the drum sealed, but not sure how long it would be stable beyond that. Thus I always make the batch two days after I prepare the methoxide solution

    4. As I use 2 x 200L clarifiers I am never short of product. By the time one drum has emptied the other is ready to go. When the IBC is emptied I have 400L of product in the two clarifiers, which has to last me long enough for the new batch to be made and then clarified. I now begin bubbling in the IBC before I empty the clarifiers, to speed up the process. So essentially, once you begin you're never short of product. If, however, you were using it at a greater rate than this, just add more clarifiers as required

    5. Yes, it may result in more use of catalyst. It's 16.6 g/L. That works out to 5c/L. Perhaps you may save 1 or 2c if you used less catalyst. But, of course,
    • I don't have the expense of the titration equipment and consumables, whatever that may be.
    • I don't have the expense of heating the oil.

      If, however, you think that the higher level of catalyst "reduces the yield" you haven't understood the chemistry of the process, as it does the exact opposite. I have yet to run my product through a mass spec. but the higher use of catalyst will produce a more complete reaction. It's worth noting that Before I changed the ratio from 100:15 to 100:20, I would sometimes see the merc being a bit smoky before it warmed up. That has now disappeared. If you are "at a loss" I'll explain why I don't do a titration. It's unnecessary. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. For an extra cost of perhaps a couple of cents per litre (although I'm not sure it's more expensive overall), I have the simplicity of a foolproof method.


    6. If you don't need to heat liquid oil, why does the Dr Pepper method still say that you do (last I checked).

    I make my fuel in 1000L batches. What size do you make them in?

    Not sure where you live, but I'll be doing a public demo with my next batch (in Perth).

    But yes, ultimately it's personal choice. I offer my method for general consumption as it has the attraction of simplicity, and if there's one thing that characterises the discussions on this (and other forums) it's the problems that non-chemists have trying to understand molecular processes that really require knowledge of physical and/or organic chemistry at 200 or 300 level. And this is of course exacerbated by the fact that most of the self-styled experts (one in particular) on this and other sites have no formal training in chemistry, and most of what they say is wrong.

    When I first got involved with this, I thought you'd welcome the advice and knowledge of a highly qualified and experienced chemist, but how wrong I was. There are some fragile egos (one in particular) that take great exception to the suggestion that someone may know more than they do about biodiesel, and bombard my posts with ignorant, childish drivel, that I no longer even bother reading.

    But your questions were legitimate questions and I have attempted to answer them. But, as you say, it's personal choice. If you don't want to use my method I will not, I assure you, lose any sleep over it

    Cheers.

  7. #27
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    Re: Foolproof Room Temperature (FRT) Biodiesel

    Hi Mark,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    6. If you don't need to heat liquid oil, why does the Dr Pepper method still say that you do (last I checked).
    Have you actually never performed any testing or experimentation to determine whether heating the oil is required to produce biodiesel using the normal base method? If you have not, I find it remarkable.

    To help you understand this more clearly, WesleyB performed just such a test to determine whether it is necessary to heat the oil. His test results were posted to this forum in July last year and were:
    "So, biodiesel transesterification reaction can be done without heating using the regular method."

    Then, just last Month, RickDaTech explained to you on the infopop forum;
    "The primary advantage of using heat is speed, the reaction goes faster with heat. There have been others that recommended making biodiesel without adding heat, like the video below from 2010. There have been many others."

    I hope I have been able to help sort out the confusion you seem to have about why I recommend heating the oil when performing the World Famous Dr Pepper Technique (pat Pend)
    If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to post them. I am sure there are a number of people here on the forum that can provide any additional information you might require.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 21st March 2019 at 05:22 PM.

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