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Thread: My first wash. AARGGHH

  1. #21
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Thanks Tilly.

    is there an approximate ratio / proportion of vinegar to brew that I should be using?

    I am over waiting. this brew has been 3 weeks in the making so far. I need to be able to brew 200 L and wash in 1 to 2 days max.

    question about 'drying'. So after I heated that little sample on the stove the other night (no bubbling) and stored it back in a sealed glass jar, I checked the water content using my little aviation fuel testers. it passed with absolutely no indication of water at all.

    now I dont know what the trigger PPM is on the indicator, but seeing that this is the last test for water before the fuel is used in multi million dollar engines, i am tipping that the test is extremely sensitive to water.

    so - if simply heating the washed fuel to remove water is sufficient, why do people bubble after wards? its not meant as a snide remark at all, as I am yet to even successfully wash my first batch, I am just interested to see what peoples motivations are, and how they believe the process is improved by bubbling. I am sure if you didnt heat the batch you would probably need to bubble though.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  2. #22
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Hi Cade,

    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    is there an approximate ratio / proportion of vinegar to brew that I should be using?
    I can not recall that I have ever used an acid to break an emulsion.
    My thoughts are that you should use as little as possible that will do the job you are after.




    question about 'drying'. So after I heated that little sample on the stove the other night (no bubbling) and stored it back in a sealed glass jar, I checked the water content using my little aviation fuel testers. it passed with absolutely no indication of water at all.
    now I dont know what the trigger PPM is on the indicator, but seeing that this is the last test for water before the fuel is used in multi million dollar engines, i am tipping that the test is extremely sensitive to water.
    {Quick Edit}It seems that the Shell Aviation Water Detector detects Free Water from about 10ppm and above.
    The Australian standard for water which also happens to be the ASTM standard is free water must be under 50ppm.
    If you see no change in the Test that suggests your water is well below 50ppm
    http://catalog.beckerandassociates.c...water-detector



    so - if simply heating the washed fuel to remove water is sufficient, why do people bubble after wards? its not meant as a snide remark at all, as I am yet to even successfully wash my first batch, I am just interested to see what peoples motivations are, and how they believe the process is improved by bubbling. I am sure if you didnt heat the batch you would probably need to bubble though.
    There is a lot of "by Guess and by Golly" that goes on with biodiesel production.
    A lot of well meaning people who do not know what they are talking about post inaccurate information.
    A few people knowingly post inaccurate information and I have never been able to figure out why.

    I have never heated to dry biodiesel when making biodiesel to fuel my vehicles. For a few years I did use an aquarium pump to dry biodiesel but now I just leave it sit for months or years.
    I would imagine that if you are trying to increase the speed you dry your biodiesel, bubbling while heating would help, however you might need to be using a large quantity of DRY air to make any real difference.
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 17th June 2019 at 11:23 PM.

  3. #23
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    Blue Mountains, NSW
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    The bubbling is done at the same time as warming and simply speeds the drying along.

    I never needed much heat when bubbling at the same time. Only about 30 degrees or so.

    I am no expert or chemist - just saying what worked for me.

  4. #24
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Thanks for your time looking up the water detector. thats good news, so if it passes the test (i.e. less than 40 PPM), then it is definitely dry enough to use (less than 50 PPM as per ASTM).

    That was my major concern in washing - was achieving dry fuel. I am glad I have the means to achieve it and test for it.

    Thanks Chev, I will see how fixing this brew up goes and then consider bubbling. I might try and hook up a 12v battery or something to bubble with as I generally turn my shed off when I am not in it.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    South Australia
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Cade a few years ago when I studiously dried my oil while up settling I found that some solar heat helped a lot. A 200 litre drum of oil which failed the hot pan test could be dried in one day with a small aquarium bubbler running for a bare 6 hours while the oil was warm (30 -40deg). BTW the bubbler while running 12volts was actually an AC device which used a small transformer to convert 240VAC to 12VAC so it won't work with a battery. It is however a very low power device and can dry 200 litres at a time with a little wall wart not a lot different to a phone charger.
    These days I don't dry my oil as it dries itself by settling, helped by care not to add the dregs of containers which may have free water on the bottom.
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 190000km on WVO,(2019) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids heated filter, fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned
    Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: no fuel mods except bigger fuel line from tank, running blend of 90% oil 10% petrol 11000km to date. Motor purrs but car has electrical gremlins

  6. #26
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    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Acetic acid is a stronger acid than free fatty acids. The sodium or potassium salt of free fatty acids (soaps) switch the sodium or potassium to acetic acid giving sodium acetate salt and the free fatty acid resulting

  7. #27
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    Brisbane (North Side)
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Hey Wesley,

    unfortunately it looks like your post was cut off. would you mind please continuing?
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  8. #28
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    UPDATE:

    so last night I did a bit more cooking on the stove. took some mayo and heated it. man o man that makes for some trippy viewing. best damn lava lamp i have ever seen.

    anyway heating certainly assisted, but I found I needed to heat and apply a small amount of vinegar to break it properly.

    as per previous, when it cooled it was cloudy. so I took the fuel off the top (leaving remains behind) and heated again to just under 100 degrees.

    this time there was no real drop out at all, no vapour, no boiling, just bloody hot fuel.

    and it stayed clear and bright after cooling. I checked for water content, and it passed.

    My new heat controller setup should rock up this week, so i will install it and try it out.

    on the topic of vinegar qty, I found about 2 tablespoons was sufficient to break the brew of about 500ml. I didnt try less and slowly increase, I just dumped it in.

    on that basis, it would need about 12 litres. that sounds pretty extreme. I think I will muck about with some samples a bit more tonight and see how much it really needs.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  9. #29
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    Nov 2010
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    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    I was interrupted while typing a reply. To continue, I made potassium or sodium soap from sodium or potassium hydroxide, on purpose. So I made normal soap. I put maybe 1/4 gram of the known soap into a 50 milliliter beaker, added some vinegar, heated with a Zippo cigarette lighter and got a bouyant transparent liquid floating on the surface (liquid free fatty acids). In chemistry there is continuity of elements (mass), things just don't dissappear, except in nuclear. Soap is a free fatty acid, a long carbon chain with a carboxylic acid group on the end but there is an atom of the metal sodium or potassium bonded to an oxygen at the end of the chain (14-22 carbons in length) . The shorter carbon chain acetic acid is a two carbon atom chain molecule and a stronger acid, I'm not sure why it's a stronger acid but it is. If there is an electronegativity difference of greater than 1.5 (I think it was) then in the presence of some water the atoms can seperate and switch so the sodium or potassium of a soap bond to acetic acid (vinegar) and the hydrogen of the carboxylic acid , vinegar transferers to the soap which becomes a free fatty acid. When I water washed small quantities of biodiesel, once I got the purified stuff distilled water poured right through it. I've never seen the orange juice referred to here. If salt was used to break the emulsion, most of it should be removed by washing before burning the fuel. Breaking the emulsion with vinegar puts a little high boiling free fatty acids into the product biodiesel, which is not good.

  10. #30
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    Re: My first wash. AARGGHH

    Hi Wesley,

    Quote Originally Posted by WesleyB View Post
    I've never seen the orange juice referred to here.
    Just washed biodiesel with lots of water still in suspension looks like "Orange Juice". You do have to agitate to thoroughtly mix the biodiesel and water.



    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 18th June 2019 at 11:34 PM.

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