Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 35

Thread: Containerised Plants

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8

    Containerised Plants

    Hi All,

    I'm a newby to the forum and would like to share the frustrations I have found.
    I have been putting together a co - op of people to invest in a medium scale production facility for the past 3 - 4 months. We are looking at the southside of the river - all the big boys are to the north ! I have been investigating the "containerised plants" on the o/s market. I am totally blown away with the general wall of bs I have hit ! Pricing starts from 10K euro to 3 million euro to produce 20k litres a week. Many Aus operators have grabbed "agencies" from the european suppliers and provide little or no service to prospective clients. I have found this to be happening as these "agents" are setting up their own plants and/or trying to build a monopoly. All is fair in business but here comes another "petro monopoly"

    The reason for us looking at the containerised systems is easy access to the European technology. Considering they are probably 10 years advanced over Aus. The whole idea behind these systems is to decentralise the production of biodiesel and make it an affordable product to the general public everywhere.

    I had one "agent" try and tell me the market in Qld will be flooded and I would not be able to sell the stuff! What the ! Dude, sell me the plant, keep your marketing !

    We have looked at feed stock alternatives and the given up on used oil options (people or gettn gready !) and are importing our own oil extractors. We are now contracting seed feed stock.

    After my little winge, has anyone had any dealings with "Containerised" systems?
    I think I will have to learn to weld ! If you guys and make plants from old hot water systems, I could make something myself on a larger scale !

    Also anyone know anything about new gov regs coming in July ?

    Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
    The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.
    </IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG>

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Tubby,

    Building a plant is something that we can possibly discuss at a later date but I had a look at your question about what the government announcements re. 1 July 2006 will mean night. When I looked at the question I found the whole tax treatment of biofuels was very complex and decided to try to work through it.

    I am keenly aware that some of the information below my be wrong (or indeed, very wrong) but I am posting it as a starting point - I hope that others others will contribute their understanding and correct any mistakes or enlarge on some of the questions.

    My understanding is that there are 5 sets of tax/government support issues that have an impact on the tax treatment of biodiesel and while each of them is relatively straightforward it gets complicated when they overlap.

    Set 1: Situation now (June 2006) - Standard excise duty with full refund.
    Biodiesel is currently subject to 38.14c/litre tax but this is refunded in full by an equivalent production grant.

    Set 2: Introduction of tax on biofuels 2011 - 2015
    Biodiesel will be fuel tax exempt until 2011. From 2011 to 2015 the net fuel tax will increase gradually to 19.1c per litre (as refund decreases). This is approx half the ordinary tax on petrol and diesel when used for cars and trucks of less than 4.5 tonnes.

    Set 3: Government reform of tax on fuel used for business.
    The government is in the process of making the following business uses of fuel tax free (dates for implementation in brackets):
    • Fuel used 'off road' (phased btw 2008 - 2012)
    • Power generation (1 July 2006)
    • Burner fuels (heating / kerosene) (1 July 2006)
    • Fuel used in trucks heavier than 4.5 tonnes (1 July 2006) to be replaced by a 'flat?' Road User Fee. I donít know how exactly this Road User Fee is calculated (the National Transport Commission does it) but I understand that it is likely to be only 20c per litre.
    Set 4: Phase out of Alternative Fuel Grant under Energy Grants (Credit) Scheme - phase out (2006 - 2011).
    Under this scheme set up on 1 July 2003, business users of biodiesel get a grant of 18c/litre. This will be reduced to 14.8c/litre on 1 July 2006 and disappear completely by 1 July 2010.

    Set 5: Biofuels Capital Grants project
    This is a government scheme that closed in 2004. It is not really related to tax but it gives successful applicants a grant of 16c/litre of biofuel. It is relevant in that producers who got grants will enjoy this grant in theory, although I practice the money was paid out to them at the time their production facility was created.

    I have worked out two tables that I think set out the tax treatment of biodiesel when compared with (1) business use fuels and (2) private use fuels - I've attached them to this post as a PDF. Please report back on any errors they find or further information they come across.

    Paddy

    Last edited by Robert; 6th June 2006 at 10:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,665

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Hey Paddy,

    Welcome to the forums and thankyou very much for your contribution

    We all need to know more about the tax issues around biodiesel, so thanks for your summary, I'm sure many will find it useful.

    I might also move this bit to a new thread on tax to make it easier for everyone to find.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Robert; 6th June 2006 at 10:37 PM.
    Robert.
    Site Admin.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    41

    Re: Australian Biodiesel Tax Info

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby
    Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
    The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.
    Sorry to hear of your woes.

    To comment on the microreactor - I have been involved in microreactor development for other applications. It as a lot of potential, but the technology is definitely in its infancy. Also, the throughput from one reactor is very small, so you would need a huge bank of reactors - with inherent scale-up problems. The cost at the moment would also be prohibitive, compared to other systems. So unless you have lots of spare money for R&D and a long time-scale, I would stick to more conventional production methods at the moment.
    Cheers,

    Ben.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    421

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby
    Hi All,

    I'm a newby to the forum and would like to share the frustrations I have found.
    I have been putting together a co - op of people to invest in a medium scale production facility for the past 3 - 4 months. We are looking at the southside of the river - all the big boys are to the north ! I have been investigating the "containerised plants" on the o/s market. I am totally blown away with the general wall of bs I have hit ! Pricing starts from 10K euro to 3 million euro to produce 20k litres a week. Many Aus operators have grabbed "agencies" from the european suppliers and provide little or no service to prospective clients. I have found this to be happening as these "agents" are setting up their own plants and/or trying to build a monopoly. All is fair in business but here comes another "petro monopoly"

    The reason for us looking at the containerised systems is easy access to the European technology. Considering they are probably 10 years advanced over Aus. The whole idea behind these systems is to decentralise the production of biodiesel and make it an affordable product to the general public everywhere.

    I had one "agent" try and tell me the market in Qld will be flooded and I would not be able to sell the stuff! What the ! Dude, sell me the plant, keep your marketing !

    We have looked at feed stock alternatives and the given up on used oil options (people or gettn gready !) and are importing our own oil extractors. We are now contracting seed feed stock.

    After my little winge, has anyone had any dealings with "Containerised" systems?
    I think I will have to learn to weld ! If you guys and make plants from old hot water systems, I could make something myself on a larger scale !

    Also anyone know anything about new gov regs coming in July ?

    Anyone heard anything about this new microreactor developed or is it bs ?
    The size of a credit card and not chemicals needed.
    </IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG>
    Hi all
    My first post here a bit new at this so may be I will ask for a bit of leeway
    OK The Europeans certainly have the Containerised game pretty well sushed out, However It has been my experince that they will price their units on a 4 year pay back on the savings In other words whatever you save in manufacturing bio diesel for the first 4 years it goes to the cost of the plant
    The process is not that difficult as it is well established in the soap making industry (no we dont want to make soap) in regards to esterifiyng any kind of oil which is what we do when we make biodiesel
    I have found that the US patents office to be a very good source of knowledge in the different ways of achiving that even though the site is a bit tricky to get to the info that you are looking for
    Now I am not suggesting that one infringes patent rights but as any one knows patents have a finite life and some of them have expired so there is no problem I have gone down that path and I share your views I have tracked down a unit that is manufactured here in Aus as well for the sum of $ 6,000 which consisted of two 44 Gallon drums and a plastic methoxide injection tank as well as a row of valves and a pump It did do make biodiesel i thought it was more like $1,500.00 for what it was
    So just like you I am going down the path of gathering the necessarry information for the fabrication of a reasonable size plant
    I will post my links into some very wortwhile sites and some patent extracts with drawings once I learn how to do it I am getting a bit of "how" in a day or two by a "computer geek"
    Cheers
    Chris
    </IMG></IMG></IMG>

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sydney/Nimbin/Delhi-Planet earth
    Posts
    272

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Hi Chris,
    You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
    In the case of Bio Diesel unless one goes to make stuff on a commercial basis and to the country standard(ASTM,etc) simple home assemble systems are good enough.There is enough material out for a handyman to fabricate a small unit.
    Just to let you know that Oily in this forum has designed and fabricated a unit which he is selling for $1500 and gst.Worth giving him a shout.

    With regards to commercial units I must share a bit of information .This based on my research along with a few other oil technologists around the world(don't take me to court for this).

    Of all the hype in the world about batch and continuous plants.It is found that for any commercial venture.
    Upto 15,000tons per year A Batch plant is recommended
    Anything more one should go for a continuous plant.However continuos plants have a problem.The centrifuges that are presently available in the market designed mainly for other applications and effective seperation happens only in those designs that are 50tons per hour or more.Which means that to make a continuos plant feasable one has to go for a 50tons per hour unit at least.Smaller size centrifuges do not work.A lot of work is being done at equipment manufactures ,unis and R& D institutions worldwide to design a smaller size or smaller size centrifuges that can economically do the seperation.

    With reagrds to micro reactors.We all knwo that micro or nano reactors which is the future of process Industry is still in it's infancy.Exhorbitantly expensive till and technology is yet to be streamlined.Maybe in 10 years we will have micro reactors like micro waves in our homes processing all your chemical needs.Till then....we improving.
    cheers
    sauman

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Has anyone had anything to do with Bioking ? Equipment looks ok but service is non-existent. The web site changes at least once a week and the prices go up and down all the time. I have been trying to get info from the Australian agent but they don't seem to want to sell anything, it is now a month since I first contacted them !


    Anyone thought of using an old milk vat or brewery reaction chamber to mix and heat with ?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sydney/Nimbin/Delhi-Planet earth
    Posts
    272

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Hi Tubby
    I have had dealings though not directly with Bio King.
    There centrifuge design erked my attention as I wanted to look into incorporating them in small continuos plant designs.
    But as you rightly mentioned service and knowledge level of agents is much to be desired.
    We even offered them to represent them in Asia should they accept a few pre conditions.No reply yet. is
    Even there heat exchanger looks crash hot.But haven't been yet able to get a spec sheet out of em.Guess netherlands is to far off and Europe is their focus market.
    Cheers
    Sauman

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    421

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauman
    Hi Chris,
    You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
    sauman
    Hello again
    As you rightly said micro units have a long way to go and the continious process is again viable on a certain tonnage throughput per annum or whatever period before it makes economic sense There is another way that I am of the view will pay sooner It what is reffered to as a continious batch There are a number of proponents on this One of them is oekotek in germany as well as savoia in Argentina both of these guys have a pressurised reactor vessel.
    From the information I have gleaned mainly reading between the lines as well as extensive reasearch on the various processes available I think it goes something like this
    1. The tank is charged with the right amount of raw material
    2.The oil is heated to a temperature high enough while is stirred to get rid of any moisture
    3.While this is taking place the compressor, a dry air one is used to create a negative pressure into the reactor vessel in effect lowering the boiling point of water which has a positive side on the amount of energy used as well as cutting down the drying time Water under lower pressure will boil at a lower temperature the opposite to a spring loaded radiator cap in any motor car nowdays
    4.Once a certain temperature is reached (I would guess based on time) since the volume of the reactor tank is known as well as the capacity of the vacuum come air compressor the oil should be free of any water the pump is stoped
    5.Since the tank is now under negative pressure the Methoxide mixture already prepared in a seperate vessel is sucked in to the tank from the bottom of the reaction tank through some kind of a disperser like a a ring with lots of small holes so as to ensure dispersion of the methoxide through the oil
    6.The air pump is then reversed so as to place the vessel under pressure while the material is continiously stirred for about an hour
    7. The stirring is stoped and phase seperation takes place quite rapidly (I have read in as little as ten minutes and as much as an hour)
    8. Once phase seperation is completed and while that tank is still under pressure a timed discharge of the glycerin takes place from the bottom of the tank, once again that can be done since the volumes are known as well as the pressure within the tank as is the volume flow out of the discharge point
    9. The reactor would now contain biodiesel that can be pumped out through a filter to another tank for further treatment and the process repeated
    So if we are to take some arbitary numbers this is how it can look:
    Say a reactor capacity of 300 liters
    and using the formula of:
    MeOH=0.225xOIL KOH=OIL/100
    Where:Oil=amount of oil in litres
    MeOH=amount of methanol needed in litres
    KOH= amount of potassium hydroxide required in kg
    As a rule a qty of 1.1% of KOH is used and the methanol is chemically speaking 100% in excess on a molar ratio basis of 6:1 to the amount of oil
    In simple terms we need to have more alcohol atoms to combine with the oil to get a methyl ester
    So from the above with a charge of 80% capacity into the reactor and assuming complete reaction without any of our oil been saponified (making soap is almost the same process) or turning into an emulsion (Water in the process will do that) we can get 80% of biodiesel out of our charge in the reactor every hour and a half or so the remainder 20% being the glycerine
    If we pump the diesel into a holding tank to settle out it is obvious that we can produce a fair qty of biodiesel per day, as an educated guess about 1000 litres in a long day would be quite feasable and that is with a relatively small tank
    The above are my observations and are here for discussion additions etc
    so please keep that in mind,having made that note I will now carry on and say a bit more
    My reasearch so far has thrown up a lot of good things as well as some questions that I am still in the process of getting the answers
    But here are some of the pluses in the closed reactor vessel
    1.Oil can be heated under a partial vacuum and dried so as to prevent emulsions forming and ensure conversion
    2.The transfer of the methoxide into the reactor vessel is done by default eliminating the handling of a rather nasty product
    3.Methanol recovery can be done quite simply and quickly by adding a simple condensor into the evacuation side of the air pump, quickly due to the lower boiling point of Alcohol it should boil out of the biodiesel as a gas in the space remaining in the top of the reactor once the pressure drops
    4.The Glycerine can also be discharged again without pumps, as it can be done while the vessel is under pressure
    5.Washing of the biodiesel with water can be done within the same vessel allowed to settle and by putting the system through the same cycle again a clean dry and waterless biodiesel will be obtained
    5.The system can be used with Ethyl alcohol which will produce a better more "beningn to the enviromentIt" fuel
    6.It will also get rid of the very dangerous material Methyl which is absorbed through the skin and forms a poison,This is to be noted by all
    Of course the Ethanol process has its own issues it should 200 proof and it needs all the water removed 100% things not that hard to overcome
    Now here some of the curly ones that I am still looking into:
    In some closed heated and pressurised reactors they do two reactions Once the first reaction is completed a vigorous stirring of the material is carried out and a further 5% of Metanol without the KOH is injected into the vessel the idea is that any oil that has not converted into an ester in the first step will do so in the second The university of Idaho has been engaged in biodiesel resarch since the 80's they say that conversion is also dependant in the type of oil used as well as the catalyst end the type of alcohol used to esterify the oil
    So far from scientific research into the matter I have not seen anything better than 97.5% for methanol based reaction and 94.3% for ethanol based reactions So how these claims of 100% conversions of the oil in the esterification are made without qualification I am yet to establish
    Another example, Savoia in Argentina produces a reactor and has sold a no of units no washing of the biodiesel whatsoever there Rodolfo the inventor of the device has been engaged in a a number of forums as to why not wash
    He has a few valid points such as any remainning alchol in the finished biodiesel will only improve combustability as it will brake down under compression in the engine and release Hydrogen I agree with him on that the addition of straght ethanol as done by the bus companies in Sydney bears wittness to that
    The question was put to him as to what happens to the KOH which is only a catalyst which is in suspension within the finished product he says that the 1.1% is so minute that it would not matter
    The jury is still out on this one and so am I
    It also seems that Oekotek in Germany appear to have a very simmilar aproach as described above but the do TWO washes This process is also well known About 5% water is added into the reactor after phase seperation has occured but before the glycerin is removed and a vigorus stirring is given to the material This has the effect of pulling out any glycerol in suspension within the oil Once it settles out (3 layers now) the glycerin and the water is drained out and a further qty of about 28% of water is sprayed into the vessel and allowed to seep through When it settles out a very slow stiring takes place and air is pumped into the water phase of the tank through a bubler for about an hour The water is then removed and the biodiesel is heated and dried under a partial vacuum then through a cooler filtered and stored ready for use
    Now it appears to me that a combination of the above mentioned methodolgies and systems can adapted
    Any competent metal fabricator can "bolt" a system tioghether that will most likely do the job at a far lower cost
    By the way there is a very good description of a reactor that uses some of the concepts described here as well as photos and construction details
    take a look http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Reactor.html
    It is my considered view that this device will form a very good platform for a first stage in a small way although not useless where one can "ground his teeth" with the view of up-scaling later Please read the licensing conditions carefully,commercial use is not on The inventor/author should be contacted if that is the case
    Finnally here are the links that will get you to the Savoia site http://www.savoiapower.com/biodiesel.html and Oekotek http://www.oekotec.ibg-monforts.de/bio-e/030.html
    Just as a matter of interest this guy at Savoia has also sold us here in Australia a NUCLEAR reactor when i read it on his site I could not believe it I nearly fell out of my chair when I read it here we are looking into ways to look after the place by using a renewable resource as fuel and some one here in this country buys a bloody nuclear reactor
    Any way,
    Hopefully the above may be of some help to you and others and I will be happy to elaborate on points that may be not clear I have assumed that the reader will have a basic understanding of the methodology used in making biodiesel and have a basic grasp of high school chemistry
    Buy for now
    Chris
    PS This thing is limited to 10000 characters and I had to chop a few things out I will have to learn how to do a "Sticky" or may be some one can help me out here

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    421

    Re: Containerised Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauman
    Hi Chris,
    You are right that patents have a finite life and all that.
    In the case of Bio Diesel unless one goes to make stuff on a commercial basis and to the country standard(ASTM,etc) simple home assemble systems are good enough.There is enough material out for a handyman to fabricate a small unit.
    Just to let you know that Oily in this forum has designed and fabricated a unit which he is selling for $1500 and gst.Worth giving him a shout.

    With regards to commercial units I must share a bit of information .This based on my research along with a few other oil technologists around the world(don't take me to court for this).

    Of all the hype in the world about batch and continuous plants.It is found that for any commercial venture.
    Upto 15,000tons per year A Batch plant is recommended
    Anything more one should go for a continuous plant.However continuos plants have a problem.The centrifuges that are presently available in the market designed mainly for other applications and effective seperation happens only in those designs that are 50tons per hour or more.Which means that to make a continuos plant feasable one has to go for a 50tons per hour unit at least.Smaller size centrifuges do not work.A lot of work is being done at equipment manufactures ,unis and R& D institutions worldwide to design a smaller size or smaller size centrifuges that can economically do the seperation.

    With reagrds to micro reactors.We all knwo that micro or nano reactors which is the future of process Industry is still in it's infancy.Exhorbitantly expensive till and technology is yet to be streamlined.Maybe in 10 years we will have micro reactors like micro waves in our homes processing all your chemical needs.Till then....we improving.
    cheers
    sauman
    Hi there again
    I have already posted a rather long essay? However I missed a direct reply to some points raised by you
    The centrifuge issue is a curly one and you are quite right Have you had a look into a devise called a Hydrocyclone it may be worth you while We have a manufacturer here in Aus that makes these things They are used extensively in the mining industry just to do that he has e very interesting web site with a fair bit of info as well as photos here is the link http://www.concordeng.com.au/cyclones/index.shtml I have spoken to these guys and they are very helpfull He quoted about $800 for the 68 mm model so it is not a prohibitive item to have a crack at
    On another point as well is the question of using dairy tanks I can see issues with that It seems to me that succesfull biodiesel tanks weather they are at atmospheric or under pressure appear to be on a ratio of 3.5 to 1 in other words they should be 3.5 times in height to the diameter of the vessel
    The reason for that is the mixing can be achieved much more thoroughly as well as the dispersion of the methoxide in the oil will be better in a narrow and higher column
    If the the methoxide is injected into the bottom of the reactor it will most likely rise through the oil if the temperature of the oil is around 60 c and the stirrer is on so much the better
    An ideal vessel would be an old autoclave These come in various sizes from baby ones to monsters They are used in hospitals to sterilise equipment as well as in the food industry to prepare canned and plastic pouch foods
    Since they are invariably under pressure by steam when they are used in their normal role they are constructed with very thick walls to take the pressure they would make ideal reactors for biodiesel Invariably they are made from stainless steel
    Of course they need to be vertical for biodiesel rather then the horizontal form that they are normaly so some cutting and welding would be required to put them into use
    You come accross them in second hand machinery dealers yards as well as scrap metal yards If you come across one that has an external water jacket so much the better You may then burn your biodiesel to heat up the water to provide the necessarry heat for the reactor
    Another link that may be of interest to you is http://www.crduk.com/Products_OF%20Large.html these guys have a very revolutionry continious mixer Dont ask me what they want for it as i am scared to ask Still is quite an interesting and novel idea
    So much for now
    Chris

Similar Threads

  1. Australian Biodiesel Tax Info
    By Tubby in forum General Biodiesel Discussion
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 28th September 2006, 09:46 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •