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Thread: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wollongong Australia
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    7

    Frytol: where did I go wrong??



    Hi all,
    Looking for some help along the following lines.

    Recently did a couple of small batches using wvo for the first time. After the titration I found the titration number to be 19.5. This added to the 7 grams of KOH/ litre of wvo i was processing i proceeded as usual.

    Findings:
    * Seperation didnt take place on first inspection. (Not instantly like when I used svo)
    *Seperation was visible the following day though it was quite murky and milky. Some clearer seperation was visible when I put the biodeisel/soap/glycerine in the sun.

    Where did I go wrong???
    Was it the temperature itself or the poor state of the wvo or both?

    Appologies for posting this in reply at first on another post.

    Your assistance would be would be welcome. I feel I am struggling being all new to this and want to overcome these first hurdles before expanding.

    Torch

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sunshine Coast, QLD
    Posts
    708

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    your titration number is off the wall. What titration method did you use?

    You may be making soap.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia
    Posts
    333

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Agree with Joe, unless the Frytol was black as the ace of spades the titration number is over the top. I've made Frytol batches and they generally titrate at 3 max. But that of course depends on how poor the condition of the Frytol.
    Maverick
    Canberra

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    South West Sydney
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    414

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    As the others have said, this titration number is unusually high. Either your titration method is inaccurate or the Frytol is garbage.

    There are upper limits on titration when using the standard single stage (base) technique. The upper limits are generally around 5ml for NaOH and 8ml for KOH. Above this range problems start to occur.

    Before the biodiesel reaction can take place, the FFA's (acid) has to be neutralised by the titration amount of caustic (alkali) and this makes a little bit of water. The transesterification reaction also makes a tiny bit of water, oil+water+caustic = soap.

    The soap making reaction takes precedence over the biodiesel reaction.

    So as the titration level increases, so does the risk of making soap. This will make the whole batch turn to a gloopy gel.

    The soap making reaction also consumes the caustic so the biodiesel reaction cannot progress to completion.

    You can make biodiesel from high titrating oils/fats but you'll need to lower the titration first. Some folks have success mixing it with the glycerine from a previous batch, the surplus caustic in the glycerine neutralises some of the FFA's. Or you could use the acid/base technique, resrearch the FATTA method.
    Last edited by geewizztoo; 15th August 2008 at 09:50 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wollongong Australia
    Posts
    7

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Thanks for the feedback guys,
    Titration method I used was following the guide on the following link
    http://www.murphysmachines.com/how_t...o_titrate.html

    The wvo I used was just about black when heated.

    The temparature while doing the titration and mixing the methoxide with the wvo was about 15C.

    Is it just the oil or a combination of the above?
    Once in the sun the top layer is a liquid dark dark amber with the glycerine being quite solid.
    In the cold morning the top layer is a slushy texture.
    Should I even bother with washing drying then testing or from your experience is this a right off??

    Again your knowledge is appreciated.

    Torch

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,352

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Torch,
    Because you are a new member and you included a link in your post, your post was trapped by out "moderator assistant", so that we can check that you are not a spammer.

    While I have not checked out your link, your words assure me that you are genuine.

    I have deleted the multiple posts and left this one in the Topic.

    I feel that your temeperature for the titration is way too low to titrate frytol oils.

    Regards,
    Tony

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia
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    333

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Agree, I was titrating Frytol at close to 55 deg C and then I'd sit the whole titration mix in hot water to keep the temp up and the Frytol liquid.

    Also sound like very poor quality oil. If it still titrates that high I'd be looking for a new source and never eat at the joint you are picking that up from.
    Maverick
    Canberra

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wollongong Australia
    Posts
    7

    Smile Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Thanks again all,

    I think I will be choosing another fish and chip shop (and hopefully oil supplier).

    Thanks for the sound advice.
    Ill let you know how things get on from here.

    Torch

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sunshine Coast, QLD
    Posts
    708

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    I would be rechecking your techniuqe. No sense making the same mistakes with another supplier.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia
    Posts
    333

    Re: Frytol: where did I go wrong??

    Joe is correct, go back and start again from scratch WRT titration. You might consider making a new batch of titration fluid also.

    The method described on the web site is what I do, the only difference is in step 2 where I just put 6 drops of Phenol Red in and swirl. The only other thing I do different is use a base of 9 for KOH.

    If you are still getting a titration number greater than 6 I'd follow through with what you have stated.
    Maverick
    Canberra

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