Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

[TheFuzz Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close TheFuzz]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Hi Robert i will hit the inner west tomorrow. There are at least 5 servos that i can detour past so i hope i can give you some info. On this B50 and other stuff. What is the difference, what should i be looking for my car.

cheers

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

The trouble is it is really hard to tell whether it is B50, B20 or B80 without the proper chemical testing facilities (and even then, it is not a simple matter I believe). Just by asking the attendant, you're not going to find out, as thus far they have demonstrated an almost deliberate ignorance which comes right from the top. You're not going to know for sure by getting a sample in a jar, but you may get a rough feel for it.

I've had a message from Future Fuels today and I have given them my mobile number to call me back on. Perhaps they are ready to start being honest with their consumers? If I do get any news from them that is valuable to us all, I'll certainly pass it on in here. Of course, they are welcome at any time to log in here and reply to us directly, as some of our other better known and trusted suppliers already do. If they helped their community, they'd get much better loyalty and respect from us.

As for the question "is it safe for my car" - the answer is probably yes, but seeing as Volume Plus seems like an unknown quantity at the moment in terms of pre-sales service or even information, I can only guess at the after sales service side of things. You will have to weigh up whether you believe that the fuel they dispense to you is clean and uncontaminated, (whether it is biodiesel or distillate). You also have to think about whether they would be there to support you if there was a problem (I did see a user saying that she once got some dodgy biodiesel blend from SAFF and they did support/reimburse her mechanical costs of cleanup and were pretty good about it, as any fuel retailer should be). You just have to ask yourself if you believe that Volume Plus would do the same. Of course, I have tried asking them this before, but did not get very far - we are all welcome to try asking again and it would be really nice, if they could give us some sort of "official" re-assurance in here so we can all see it and stop having to ask questions about it.

There is a slight risk that that any sort of biodiesel will clean out the crap in your tank left by old distillate and cause your filters to clog. It makes good sense to have spares handy, change them regularly for the first few tanks etc. Apart from this, I could see no reasons why you should have any problem with any blend of biodiesel in your car.

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

G Day Folks
I think we should derive a mechanism that will keep the guys in the browsers honest.I mean with mixing the stuff (ratio's).The govt has kinda cleaned there hands of by saying that it must be tested to a specification.Then who blends it.How is the blending done and where and what are the procedures to be followed.How does a ordinary Joe Blog actually know that he has filled in B20,B50,B100 or just snake oil mix???.
Or he has B50 but is getting B20...U KNOW WHAT I MEAN???
Something that is traceable to the manufacturer and blenders.Cos i see a lot of areas where a lot of fly by night can use this as a scam.
I don't know wether the consumers protection has thought it through.Lets share our thoughts on this.
Anda lot of people could be taken for a ride.Think about it.

We can only do it together
Cheers
Sauman

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Sauman,
So, what you are suggesting is that we need an easy test to tell us the % biodiesel and the quality of the biodiesel and the water content and the suspended solids too?
Now that would be useful.
Sell the kits for $5.00 and you would have a market. Even at $20 each you would have a lot of buyers.

Tony

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

G Day Tony
I was mulling with the idea of getting the Govt involved.Something like the HAACP thing that they have in the food industry.A sticker in every pump.Which has to be validated every month by an inspector,who ideally should be a nuetral person.Not on the payroll of oil co's or the govt.Who is trained by the govt.'s money(after all they get the revune+the oil distribution lobby).This creates employment too.
In fact if you look at the number of pumps in Oz.
This persons duty being say inspecting 30 pumps a month .He/she is equiped and trained with all the gear and files independent reports and validates the Sticker every month.This takes away the cummbersome job of every individual to do the tests personally and having to learn besides buying fuel.Most wants to fill up and drive.
We dont want them to have a fear in the back of their minds as to wether they are using the right stuff.That way we could drive them away from using and proporgation of Bio Fuels.
We want the consumer to get a peace of mind that they are actually buying the stuff they paid for and that has been authenticated by a qualified and trained person dedicated to the job.In fact if we can get an registered organisation of sort that robert and everyone else is trying then we can start this as an initiative,get govt funding and generate micro employment from within the forum itself.
This is where probably media could help us out.
Cos I know how the wheeling and dealing is done in the Servo's.Most will fall out of the chairs if they know about the rot in the system.
This way the mechanics can also be well informed .Like the Inspectors job could be multi leveled.Giving seminars,checking stuff,knowledge propogation.And Yes Off Course with Johny Boys money.
Think about it.I think if we pull the right strings and do the right projections we can get this thing going.They could even use it as an election campaign.Instead of the fear theory that every party structures there backbone.
I thought of cheap kits.But then it defeats the purpose of keeping the bastards honest.A single person does his test.Finds the servo is pulling a fast one.They then go to another.Cos as an individual the person has no say.But if the whole thing is done using the "strong arm of the law".The servos will be vigil,customer will get peace of mind and the inspectors who are actually value add to not only being a quality check but valuee add to the whole bio fuel revolution.
What do you think???

Cheers
Sauman
If required I can do a SWOT analysis and documentation bit.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Hi All
Here is how it goes, AUS standards apply for 100% biodiesel as well as 100% dino NO standard axists for any other blends
I am told that anything up to 10% of any blend in dino does not have to be disclosed
That is so long as the cetane no, does not fall below that of which is in the specification
So I dare say that any blend offered will be somewhere in that vicinity
Going from the above, on the assumption that the retailer come blender or blender wholesaler who does not want to get into strife with the law would stay within the boundaries
No biodiesel manufacturer to my knowledge blends fuel
They all seem to sell it in bulk loads, so it seems that any blends will be carried out by the wholesaler who then delivers to retail outlets wherever
including outlets that they may own
So if that is the case a 10% of buiodiesel would be the upper limit so they can stay within the law
Cheers
Chris

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

So if that is the case a 10% of buiodiesel would be the upper limit so they can stay within the law

Hum...I can say that VP sells a blend well above 10%. Between 50 and 100%.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

I've just got some info from someone who has had a sample of some fuel from volume plus analysed by one of the labs that do biodiesel tests. I'm being deliberately vague here as I'm probably not meant to have this info and I would not want to reveal who the lab was. Suffice it to say that I would trust them.

Anyway, I'm not really sure what to make of these results and I was hoping that some cleverer folk out there might comment.

These were taken some months ago. As we now know that Volume Plus will sell biodiesel in as high a blend as possible for economic reasons, back then, they were using much lower blends.

The comments from the lab were as follows (paraphrased):

The curve is along the lines of what is expected for a typical diesel distillation. The sample is around 50-60% biodiesel (the constant boiling area). About 15% of the product boils above the temperature for both biodiesel and petroleum distillate, suggesting a base oil.

I'm hoping that some of you out there can make something of this, but I would suggest that there is an additive, possibly for winterising, possibly for excise reasons? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

G Day Robert
Can we find out a bit more.The pharaphrased comment from the lab indicates that the BD was mixed with another Oil,Mentioned as Base Oil...depends on wether the Base oil was Normal Diesel or Something Else????.I take it from as normal reporting practise in the Scientific world that if it were Diesel they would spell it out.Also if we go to the work book called diesel based on which the graphs were plotted ,then we see a cooment initial boiling to long.....????
Mate I smell a big rat...Volume plus was probably pulling a big one then too.By having 50~60% BD and maybe furnace oil,snake oil...whatever oil that was cheap and maximised profit .....
Yes they are on it BiG time....lets investigate a bit more Cybor Legend.Lets blow the lid (sky High)......They are robbing in the name of Aletrnate Fuels and the whole concept.They should be locked in for life if true.
Lets investigate a bit more.
We can only do it together.
Cheers
Sauman

[mattD110td5x Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close mattD110td5x]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Hi All,

I have been using the local VP before the present experiment in BD blends.

On the old petro diesel, in the winter months I had noticed a distinct smell of kero in the exhaust gas.

I am told that;
- jet fuel is the "usual" winterisation additive to diesel and that this is covered in the diesel standard, upto a quite high ratio ~30%???
- although a diesel will run on straight jet fuel, you can't go over ~50% as the lack of lubricant kills injector pumps - particularly Toyota.
The common rail direct injection motors are better in this respect?

I would guess that - if BD has better lubricant properties then you may be able to blend to even higher ratios with the [cheaper] jet fuels?
The "aroma" of chips would certainly hide it.

ttfn
Matthew

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Hi all
This is all quite interesting however all here need to keep in mind that if there is more than 10% of any additive into any diesel fuel blend it has to be disclosed
As I said prior there are no defined standards apart from B100
Any blend of diesel with any more than 10% of anything whatever that is has to be disclosed
So I would have thought that one can demand a specification sheet for the fuel purchased
Sydneysiders surely remember the Toluene scandal on ULP a few years back?
It seems that they are at it again with Biodiesel as well as "Winterising" blends in fuels
Of course do not be surprised if nothing is done, so long as excise is paid the system will not respond to our concerns
Cheers
Chris

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Hi all
This is all quite interesting however all here need to keep in mind that if there is more than 10% of any additive into any diesel fuel blend it has to be disclosed

They do disclose it by putting on the pump a little laminated sign that says that it is a blend of Biodiesel that meets australia standard.

So I would have thought that one can demand a specification sheet for the fuel purchased

If you have ever tried to get information let alone a Spec's sheet from either Future Fuels or VP you would understand that they are really hard pressed at even telling you exactly what the blended ratio is They appear not to care about the consumer just profits at this point.

Sydneysiders surely remember the Toluene scandal on ULP a few years back?
It seems that they are at it again with Biodiesel as well as "Winterising" blends in fuels
Of course do not be surprised if nothing is done, so long as excise is paid the system will not respond to our concerns
Cheers
Chris

Yepp and that is the problem even with the excise payed at rutherford the gate price is 115c/L and the cheapest that it is in Sydney that I have seen is around 133c/L so either transport is VERY expensive or someone is making a huge dollar. And I am nearly sure that the stuff that is being pumped at the moment does not only include BD and dinodiesel, I could lay odds on that there is something else in it cause it is shocking to start in the highlands on cold mornings and at this point I have stopped pumping it and have at the moment gone to dinodiesel straight cause I won't pump carp into my Rodeo till I can get sorted with a B100 supply from a repuitable source.

[smokey2 Member Find all posts View Profile Close smokey2]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

David - if you have trouble cold starting and dino fuel doesn't fix it then try a new set of glow plugs. That usually fixes my old rocky.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney

Umm smokey only problem with that is I have tried a known source of B100 and all works fine. The issue is only with the VP fuel not the DB or dino or glowplugs on a 12 month old rodeo it is doddgy fuel

I have just stopped using dino and gone to dino till I can get BD supply sorted.

[Vivid Adventures Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vivid Adventures]

Re: Future Fuels Distribution in Sydney - Poor Quality & Poor Practices?

Here is a post on the Exploroz 4WD forum:

ExplorOz thread

It sounds like the Revesby station about 1 month ago sold someone some Biodiesel which has caused bad effects in a 25,000 k's TD Prado.

I am incensed that they would sell Biodiesel without being clear that it is Biodiesel, for one thing.

Secondly, are they using the Biodiesel to clean out their tanks and pumps of years of crud and delivering it up to consumers? Or are they adding Jet Fuel or something else which is making the fuel a poor performer?

Does anyone have any specific experience that might be of help to this guy?

Ciao for now
Andrew.