Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Chris, thanks for responding. Australia's oil production peaked in 2000. The type of drilling methods that have been used on the existing fields (sometimes referred to as 'bottle brush') has damaged the fields so that amount of oil that will be recovered will be less than originally forecasted. Its estimated that by 2015 Australia's fields will only be able to provide 20% of its demand for oil.

[FromThe Herald Sun]The Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association (APPEA) and consultants Wood Mackenzie found local oil production had already fallen from about 80 per cent of domestic demand to about 60 per cent in the past decade.
But that could plummet to as low as 20 per cent by 2015 without major new oil discoveries.

Australia's crude is very light and makes good petrol. Unfortunately, we do not have the type of crude that is used in making diesel. Almost all of Australia's diesel fuel comes from sources overseas. Our commercial agriculture, mining and transport use diesel fuel.

If the Government's target for biofuels is met, then it will only provide 1% of the liquid fuel necessary to keep business as usual. Unfortunately, as the Landline program indicated, the politics of biofuels will prevent even that pathetic target from being met.

There is presently a Senate Committee that is looking into the issue of Australia's oil security. They are taking submissions and the submissions are available for public scrutiny. Here is a link - http://www.aspo-australia.org.au

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Hi Terry
Hear you Hear you I was not going to put any further input on the dino stuff mate but this 1% of renewable sources of energy got me
I agree with the statement of the "pathetic" attitude of the powers to be I wish to close this debate with the following statement
"For every action there is an equal and opposite Government program"
I do not watch TV, Manufactured consent, as it is practiced by the media today does wonders to fool people in either a state of fear as well as a comfort It all depends what the pollies want to achieve There are posts in this thread attesting to that It is the best tool available to the money man as well as our elected rep's and man oh man do they use it
Knowledge is power However it is not gained by watching reading or listening to a well rehearsed delivery that is designed to serve the interests of whoever pays the piper Fortunately we still have access to unbiased as well as independent sources of information available to us
Cheers
Chris

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Actually, I just might put in a submission to that inquiry. I think they need the entire BEER thread shoved up their nose. They say " No late submissions will be rejected, so please encourage everyone to put in a submission, even at this stage"

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...pply/index.htm

Perhaps others might want to make a submission regarding homemade biodiesel and the ridiculous ATO position.

Australia is going to need every drop of liquid fuel it can muster in the near future. There could be thousands of unpaid workers running around collecting all the out of the way 'chip shop' oil and converting it to biodiesel. They should be encouraging that activity, not trying to suppress it.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Hello Again
Submissions are certainly the go Taxing waste oil is absurd in view of all the landfill problems in major city's as well as the fact that a resource that is put to good use
It is my view that we as a group should concentrate on that front as it may ring true with some of them rather than going the whole hog
In other words Let's point out that waste oil based biodiesel should be tax free for one's own manufacture and use
No different than owning a still producing Ethanol for human consumption (spirit, vodka whisky rum etc) which is legal in this country for ones own use
Since legislation is already in place to take care of this particular instance we should be pointing it out to them
We may have a reasonable change of success
Cheers
Chris

[adamjedgar Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close adamjedgar]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

EH????????????
Could someone please explain (damn pauline hanson for coming up with that saying but it sure is relevant here) how we end up in what seems like a discussion in philosophy in a biodiesel forum.

One thing i can say though now that the idea was mentioned, many of those folks who believe in God would feel that it is inevitable that things will get worse and not better. Funny thing that those who dont have a faith in God, in the face of declining resource stocks, global warming, and an evolutionary process that is most certainly going backwards and not improving, should think that things are looking up .

As for John Howard being the controller of our conversion to alternative fuel sources, i think you should leave that idea in your rubbish bin. The forces controlling our nation are far more powerful than our politicians. The age old saying "Money Speaks", is more to the point than many are prepared to admit sometimes. You should be complaining about the influence of the fossil fuels industry rather than "little Johnny Howard".

By the way, i have said it before in this forum and, like a wailing train passing in the dead of a very misty night, i will say it again,
WHAT "BACKYARD" PRODUCER IS GOING TO BLOODY DECLARE HIS BIODIESEL PRODUCTION QUANTITIES TO THE TAX DEPARTMENT SO HE CAN BE TAXED ON IT???(ARE YOU COMPLETELY MAD) IF YOURE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING IT FOR PROFIT WHO GIVES A RATS ASS WHAT YOU DO WITH IT!!!
FOR GODS SAKE FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO BLOODY COMPLAIN ABOUT!!!!!

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Mate FYI
phi·los·o·phy (fĭ-lŏs'ə-fē)
n., pl. -phies.

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

[Middle English philosophie, from Old French, from Latin philosophia, from Greek philosophiā, from philosophos, lover of wisdom, philosopher. See philosopher.]

May be you can tell us where we are going wrong in this, most of what you said is contraindicated in the definition of philosophy,it encompasses a broader aspect of life
May be you can also tell us why should we be seen as law breakers in a country that has a very clear position on the principle of the "Rule of law" If legislation has been passed in Parliament without taking into account a very small segment of the population such as the home biodiesel producer It is our task to point out to the relevant people, legislators, our position
It is called "Freedom of speech" sometimes it is replaced by "Faith" in belief systems
Personally I prefer to be on the right side of the Law
Cheers
Chris

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Hi All

Many valid and poignant verbiage spoken on this thread. It is good to feel so strong ,there are many points of action that is legitimate to take in the attack on the system. Yes it is true that the very nature of politics today has become more transparent such is the arrogance of all polly groups. The important thing for me is it is "A numbers game" also a "Money game" These are the major influences I believe on our present day countries managers. Numbers talk! so does big money!!. The major reasons for me are not a party domain as they have to play the say game of rhetoric. It is unfortunate to accept the truth that our system is not the Democracy we require but a very different one. That of a "Political Democracy" It keeps the power in a controlling group, if your membership is not properly aligned with the philosophy of the party you will not under any circumstances be a true free speaking candidate. Thus the odd Independent weilds so much power (at first) but notice they soon come into line. Look what happened to Pauline Hanson (she was either a fool or a brave woman) Politics is vicious. This is why perhaps there are no immerging Statesman anymore. We either make up the numbers, Maurice had a point, or take whats coming. Terry made the comment, "Protect yourself" If we are not prepared to be counted then it is clear that the future holds the same crud we are eating now!
I must make my apologies for these utterances on our forum, it is not really meant to be political. It just came out, and, I didnt even need a laxative.

Fair sailing folks

Dillyman

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Late comment,

I wonder if any member would have access to an anti virus solution to the the Political blindness to truth that has infected our pollies. I will be happy to contribute if anyone has one.

Dillyman

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Dillyman, Oz politics (and media) are truely vile. You mentioned Pauline Hanson, well I was involved with One Nation when it first took off. No, it was not racist. There were Kooris that were running for office under the One Nation banner. I spent 20 minutes on the phone one time giving legal advice to a Koori that came to Dorthy Pratt's office in Queensland for help - he felt the only people he could approach were One Nation. About 2/3 of the members in and around Sydney would be considered "Wogs". I went to a meeting one time with a mate of mine John Wong, a third generation Australian, but full-blooded chinese. We had to run the guantlet of the 'butch haircut girls' chanting "migrants yes, racists no". They looked at John with a bit of perplexion, but as I followed him I heard one taunt me with, "racist". It was only after I got inside that I realised that I was the immigrant and John was the dinkum Aussie.

Pauline got set up. I did a legal advice for One Nation on the bogus 'Constitution' well before the first case in the Federal Court in Queensland. There are many ways to take out a troublemaker. I have been involved with other parties, and each and everyone of them were subverted by the PTB. The two-party 'democratic' system is a hoax to give the masses the illusion of participation in government.

One of the last cases I did at the Bar involved the tendering of a 'confidential police file'. Both my client and I had to leave the court room while the prosecutor and the judge discussed the contents in our absence. The prosecution even made the submission that Parlamentary law can overrule the common law right to procedural fairness. In days gone past I could cross-examine police who had fabricated evidence, now days the system is devolving to the point where not only do you not get the right to cross-examine, you don't even get the right to know what the evidence is!

The system is broke, Peak Oil may be a blessing. Perhaps as the old system implodes a new society may emerge from the ashes that is worthy of participation. The present government/media system is not your friend. The oppressive issues about backyard biodiesel are minimal compared to other issues. You should read the four articles I wrote about what really happened during the Port Arthur Massacre.

As I said before - protect yourself, nobody else will.

[Amber Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Amber]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Wow. I haven't been back to this thread for a while - never thought it would get like this!

IMO, the prime minister is letting market forces rule his energy policy. If the numbers are there, I think he will develop alternatives in fuel and electricity generation. Problem is, most people either don't care, think they can't afford it, or don't know there are alternatives out there. And by not developing the technology, people aren't going to learn about it unless they actively seek to. And since people don't know about it, they're not going to buy it...which means reduced demand...which means reduced supply. It's a self-defeating cycle.

I'm a cynic, and I believe that people are inherently lazy - they want what's easiest to get. The local servo doesn't sell biodiesel? Fine, I'll take regular diesel. Diesel cars are more expensive? Fine, I'll take a petrol car. Green energy costs more? Fine, I'll stick with me ol' coal fire...

I hope most of you have seen The Corporation. Chris mentioned preferring to be on the right side of the Law. But what sort of law lets corporations get away with what they do? In these cases, our only recourse is civil disobedience (ie. make your own biodiesel), because the law is encouraging immoral and unjust behaviour.

Have you noticed that rallies no longer have an effect on politics? This is because governments don't care what their population thinks. They only care about the almighty dollar, and the people (or should I say, corporations) with the dollars get what they want legislated.

So make your own biodiesel, and distribute it to your friends. Then maybe we'll get our government back.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Wow, What did I start here?

I recall at the start of the BEER campaign that we considered getting an old age pensioner to make biodiesel, put it intop his car and drive to the ATO and advise them of what he had done and refuse to pay the excise. Demand to be charged and watch the Media circus.

Iti s a pity that this did not happen, for it may have changed to ground rules before the Government pased the most recent legislation.

For myself, I prefer to use non-excisable vegetable oil, I can stay on the right side of the law and still keep a vocal presence in the public eye.

[adamjedgar Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close adamjedgar]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

You know Tony, thats the best thing ive heard someone say on these kinds of discussions in weeks. After all, you used your own words rather than copy and paste a heap of garbled crap out of a dictionary and pretend to know what your talking about.

By the way, (and of course this is only my personal opinion, but i have thought a lot about it) i can hardly believe that some of the people here truly believe that "average joe" voted John Howard in. The working class has every reason not to vote for him...and that has been the case for 10 years. These very same people seem to forget that big business and certain large conservative church groups (to name just a couple) are able to provide substancial votes for someone like Howard...even when you would certainly believe he is going to lose big time (as the media attempted to have us all believe prior to recent past elections where Howard actually successively increased his majority).

Im sorry to say this (but the truth must be faced sooner or later), the average joe's vote usually isnt enough to put any particular party in power. Why, because "average Joe" seems to always vote the same way reguardless of current government policy. Actually, many of the average joe's cant even be bothered voting (or purposely stuff their ballot sheets) further ruining chances of significant influence. The people who tend to provide winning margins are the fencesitters, the political thinkers, what ever you want to call them. They are not necessarily aligned with any party, but will vote on performance and policy rather than heritage (sorry to my grandfather and uncle vic...they are, to the death, loyalist party supporters)

Some here would crow about a lobby group...i say again...you crow to politicians whilst the real drivers behind much of government policy are big business, and very large church groups. (I include large church groups becuase of their significant business interests and hence great wealth and power).

Follow Tony's great advice...dont bother with the idea of fronting up to pay excise...find an alternative solution you are comfortable with (for some idiots, that will obviously mean walking).

Some people are so clouded with rules and regulation, commonsense hasnt a hope in hell of even being considered, let alone prevailing!!!

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

May be the way people express themselves coherently have a source of knowledge unknown to myself as well as a lot of others
It appears that sources of "garbled crap" from dictionaries are not in use any longer for some sectors of the community
Obviously then these people have developed a different form of communication amongst themselves rather than the broader community
It appears that they think they can proceed in making themselves understood by using other than "garbled crap" therefore it is apparent that they do know what they are talking about
We now have a situation where in a public forum such as this there are some that are advocating anarchy, disobedience, as well as breaking the law of this country
If these people had the ability to read between the lines of what Tony had posted they would have got the massage of a Barrister loud and clear
The massage was protect yourselves because no one else will not break the law and advertise it
It does seem to me quite clear that this is the MSG
Now to take that and say (twist it to) "Go ahead break the law and get back at the Government" as advocated by some does not do any Justice to the Author of that rather interesting post
Finally, Some one did say that "Common sense it's common stupidity"
They may even be right
Now we dont want to go to that repository of garbled crap to define common sense do we, we just need to read some post's right here on this thread
Cheers
Chris

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

G Day Tony and Chris

You guys are so right.We need to project right thing.Do the right thing.
After all it's for the right cause and personal effings should be kept aside.
By the way Coalecser works and magnesium silicate works.
Yet get get test results.Then we have got rid of the water washing problem.Will keep you updated Chris.
Also looking at electro adsortion....more later.
Take care all.
Have a great weekend.I am going for a 4 hour no raod drive to a Jatropha Plantation tomorrow.Should be interesting.

Cheers

Sauman

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Peak oil - 4 Corners ABC TV Monday 10/7/06

Hi,

To make a minor utterance about the community influence on the direction of lives of the populace. I have for many years worked within government on the issues of community dynamics and empowerment of the democratic individual, received a tolerant reception within the halls of power. On retirement I have continued with an intellectual approach to issues at times to our managing fathers, with some response although limited. On the issue of Biodiesel, I quoted for my Federal Member Warren Truss (Minister with Port Folio) re proposal of an alignment of home made BD for personal use. That as with the Home Brew for home use which started with similar excise problems, common sense prevailed and legislation reflected the folly, a consequence of which for home use excise was admonished. My approach to Minister Warren Truss included the direction to the specific legislation Act/ paragraph, also the few words needed as an addendum to the same act to create a similar alignment with Home Brew. More than 4 months later I received a reply, that it was not within his area of operation, my concerns had been transferred to the appropriate relevant department - viz; Treasury. That was over a year ago. NO RESPONSE. I have decided that the issues are never over, I feel much more analogous to my term in the military. I remember my life became more liveable when I realized that one needs to work within the rules using their own arguments. My magic equation was. You will not be taken to task on anything you do that they consider wrong, but, only will you be taken to task for being caught! I was still able to have some influence and at the same time have a reasonably autonomous existence without giving in. "Common sense" I dont know what that means anymore. There is a good fight out there for ones beliefs,. without murdering anyone. To quote a great orator - Winston Churchill, he said. " This is not the end, neither is it the beginning of the end, but only the end of the beginning" Now I have a hobby out in the shed that I must attend to. Also lots of miles I must travel for an improved apportunity for some quality of life.

Good Luck Everyone

Dillyman