Containerised Plants

[Steve-Kal Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve-Kal]

Anybody met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000 ?

Dear All,

I'm doing a Feasibility Study into starting a home plant (appleseed) and doing it honestly i.e. obtaining an excise license and paying the excise (38.14c/litre). The figures work out, as here in Kal (WA) we are paying $1.50 for dino diesel and the prices only get higher.

However, the goal would be to claim the cleaner fuels grant to recoup the excise costs. To do this I would need to verify the product met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000.

Q1 - Has anyone managed to get their home processed biodiesel to meet this standard?

Q2 - Is there a lab in WA that can test samples of my home biodiesel to verify conformance (or not) with the quality requirements of the act?

Q3 - Are there any home brewers out there that are paying excise and claiming the cleaner fuels grant?

I hope someone out there can help.

Regards,

Steve

[glenos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close glenos]

Re: Containerised Plants

When I was looking for an oil press to buy I got in contact with IBG-Monfots in Germany and they sent me an email with a video of their containerised plants as well as a spreadsheet that did some sums for you.

I haven't looked at either of these in a year, but here they are. Just checked the spreadsheet and they start at $220k euro. See here for info on their plants


Sorry I can't attach cos they are a .xls and a .wmv, the .wmv is 920kB, I tried to zip them but they are still too big.

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi there Sauman
You and I are in furious agreement I would like to explore the Hydrcyclone issue some more I should be able to report in a few weeks with some hands on experience We anticipated to enclose the urethane cyclone in a metal casing so it contains the fragments of the device in case it disintegrates while we push the bio through a multi stage pump hooked to a speed controller
We anticipate starting at say 60% of rated speed of the two pole motor that drives the pump up to 130% available from the invertor which will provide about 3700 rpm We have calculated that we should be able to get the pressure differential necessary so separation takes place (Dont hold me to this though we are in the hands of the gods on this one)
In respect to fugals as they are commonly referred to there is small unit depicted in one of the suppliers sites for EU 25,000 no details of its performance are included just a photo it seems to be some kind of a combination device hard to tell They referred to it as a biodiesel separator here is the link http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php
Interesting how these guys round up all the prices to what they believe is what the market would bear it leaves me wondering
Will stay tuned
Chris

Hi Chris,
The sepeartor they are talking about is the same one that Bio King gives as a part of their containerised plant package.C100000/MAB.At Eu 25,000 it is shocking.
You can pick up a top of the range Westfalia or Alfa Laval seperator(Mind you I had much luck with the small sized ones) for about half the prices.

I am excited about how you go with the Cylcone seperator.Did you know that you can get ones that are 304/316ss.Mechanical Seal Manufacturers have a on the self item.They have a option of having a ceramic insert .Used normally to remove particles from liquid being pumped in oil exploration scenario.

I am also looking at the possibilty of using "electro-adsoprtion".More when I have adequate material.
Fingers crossed on how you go with the cyclone.
All the best.

Cheers

Sauman

[Tubby Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Tubby]

Re: Containerised Plants

The cylone sep sounds good. The results will be interesting.

A couple of equip links below:

http://www.kcentrifuge.com/

http://www.fuelequipment.com/category28_1.htm

http://www.hydrotechnik.co.uk/Portab...leanup_Buy.htm

http://www.svlele.com/technology.html (Sauman have you heard of these ?)

Sugar cat - http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11965

I have requested specs for the seperator from biodys about 2 weeks ago and still no reply

Bioking sep went from 48k Euro to 29k euro over night!

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Anybody met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000 ?

Dear All,


I'm doing a Feasibility Study into starting a home plant (appleseed) and doing it honestly i.e. obtaining an excise license and paying the excise (38.14c/litre). The figures work out, as here in Kal (WA) we are paying $1.50 for dino diesel and the prices only get higher.

However, the goal would be to claim the cleaner fuels grant to recoup the excise costs. To do this I would need to verify the product met the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000.

Q1 - Has anyone managed to get their home processed biodiesel to meet this standard?

Q2 - Is there a lab in WA that can test samples of my home biodiesel to verify conformance (or not) with the quality requirements of the act?

Q3 - Are there any home brewers out there that are paying excise and claiming the cleaner fuels grant?

I hope someone out there can help.

Regards,


Steve

Hi there
This link will get you to a biodiesel testing lab in Aus as well as the required standard so have a look at it and see how you go http://www.itscb.com/newsitetest/ser...ustralia.shtml
By the way from my point of view unless you standardise your process and stick to the same methodology as well as consistent raw material inputs you will have to have every one of your batches tested for conformation The clean air act allows a rebate of 16.5c per litre on vehicles over 4.5 tonne as well as convertiing costs etc this link will get you there as well you may have a good look in there http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/afcp/index.html furthermore this is from the taxman that tells you your obligations http://ato.gov.au/content/downloads/nat9885-04-2004.pdf
Good luck

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Containerised Plants

The cylone sep sounds good. The results will be interesting.

A couple of equip links below:

http://www.kcentrifuge.com/

http://www.fuelequipment.com/category28_1.htm

http://www.hydrotechnik.co.uk/Portab...leanup_Buy.htm

http://www.svlele.com/technology.html (Sauman have you heard of these ?)

Thanks for that Tubby
I have had a good look at these in the past I have spend quite a bit of time on the Sugar issue (Thanks again) it was something that I have missed It does look promising just like all of those solid catalyst It would great to avoid making soap and having to wash out the biodiesel By the way there is a lot of promise (with a pilot plant at a tonne per hour already running in Denmark) with Amine catalysts One that has shown promise is TMAH which is tetramethylammonium hydroxide I am looking into it as it seems to work at around 20C and the gurus tell me that you need to COOL the process rather then heating The assumption here is that you start with oil containing no water Here is the link http://www.daka.dk/page73.asp
These guys at Bio King are at the monte carlo casino to often
Cheers
Chris

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi Chris
I sure have heard about Mr.Lele's work.
He is also involved like me in dveloping micro economies.Quiet a guy from what I have heard in the Industry.Has been involved with BD development in India for a decade.
Thanks for the links on centrifuges .
Penwalt is a Indian mob making centrifuges.
How did the hydrocylcone go?
I know the process they are talking about.In fact one of the scientist in our group had undergone a R&D project with them.
We looked at the cost economics and unfortunately it makes no commercial sence.
The plant has a continuos deouderiser,a continuos distillation column,a recycle of amino alcohol a hydrogenation section,...all $$$$$+heaps of instrumentation.
It indeed is a better process which is bit utility heavy.
So there you go.
Wish I could get hold of the Bio King guys.Never been to Monte Carlo.
But then a peasent here.Leave the laundering to the Kings I guess.

Cheers

Sauman

[dgb Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close dgb]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi there Sauman
You and I are in furious agreement I would like to explore the Hydrcyclone issue some more I should be able to report in a few weeks with some hands on experience We anticipated to enclose the urethane cyclone in a metal casing so it contains the fragments of the device in case it disintegrates while we push the bio through a multi stage pump hooked to a speed controller
We anticipate starting at say 60% of rated speed of the two pole motor that drives the pump up to 130% available from the invertor which will provide about 3700 rpm We have calculated that we should be able to get the pressure differential necessary so separation takes place (Dont hold me to this though we are in the hands of the gods on this one)
In respect to fugals as they are commonly referred to there is small unit depicted in one of the suppliers sites for EU 25,000 no details of its performance are included just a photo it seems to be some kind of a combination device hard to tell They referred to it as a biodiesel separator here is the link http://www.biodys.com/biodiesel_processor_pricing.php
Interesting how these guys round up all the prices to what they believe is what the market would bear it leaves me wondering
Will stay tuned
Chris

Hello Chris, Tubby, Sauman,

I came accross this discussion while examining links that link to our site.
Let me clear up a few things.

We have chosen not to disclose detailed information about our products on the website because of the competition visiting every day for new ideas. If you are interested in the separator or detailed information about the other products, the quickest way to get it is by visiting our website and fill out the customer form. If you have already done so and did not receive a reply, please let me know.

The separator is an OEM Alfa Laval unit rated by AL at 800l/hr, but capable of 2000l/hr throughput. It's a new model specially designed for biodiesel separation. You can buy it at Alfa Laval as well for the same price, which is the normal going price for this product. Alfa Laval does have a less expensive unit, but it has aluminium and brass parts, and features a normal motor which we prefer not to sell for applications where methanol is involved. The MAB however complies to Atex Zone IIa specs for continuous operation in such hazardous environments. And yes, it's more expensive than the entry-level separators. We are looking at a less expensive model right now at ~ 100l/hour featuring the right components for this application.

You will find refurbished older models from Alfa Laval at other suppliers which change pricing overnight depending on the model available. If you decide to buy such a product, make sure it has an exproof motor and you get what is advertised.

Tubby, can you let me know when you asked for information about the separator so I can see what went wrong on our side? I assumed you filled out the customer form? In a few occasions the mysql server may have been down. All known inquiries on separators have been answered by us and in one case transferred to a distributor in Spain. Where did you post from?

Best regards,

Dimitri Georganas
Biodys

[Tubby Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Tubby]

Re: Containerised Plants

Here's another link for centrifuges

http://www.cadence.com.au/directory/...s/Centrifuges/

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hello Chris, Tubby, Sauman,

I came accross this discussion while examining links that link to our site.
Let me clear up a few things.

We have chosen not to disclose detailed information about our products on the website because of the competition visiting every day for new ideas. If you are interested in the separator or detailed information about the other products, the quickest way to get it is by visiting our website and fill out the customer form. If you have already done so and did not receive a reply, please let me know.

The separator is an OEM Alfa Laval unit rated by AL at 800l/hr, but capable of 2000l/hr throughput. It's a new model specially designed for biodiesel separation. You can buy it at Alfa Laval as well for the same price, which is the normal going price for this product. Alfa Laval does have a less expensive unit, but it has aluminium and brass parts, and features a normal motor which we prefer not to sell for applications where methanol is involved. The MAB however complies to Atex Zone IIa specs for continuous operation in such hazardous environments. And yes, it's more expensive than the entry-level separators. We are looking at a less expensive model right now at ~ 100l/hour featuring the right components for this application.

You will find refurbished older models from Alfa Laval at other suppliers which change pricing overnight depending on the model available. If you decide to buy such a product, make sure it has an exproof motor and you get what is advertised.

Tubby, can you let me know when you asked for information about the separator so I can see what went wrong on our side? I assumed you filled out the customer form? In a few occasions the mysql server may have been down. All known inquiries on separators have been answered by us and in one case transferred to a distributor in Spain. Where did you post from?

Best regards,

Dimitri Georganas
Biodys

Hi Dimitrios
Thank you for the reply It is good to see you still have an interest in the biodiesel concept besides the commercial aspect to bother with us in this forum I will stay in tune in regards to this new fugal you are refering to, my email add is: indmills at optus home.com.au replace the at with @ and no spaces please this keeps the spamers at bay
I would be pleased to get some specs on the existing fugal as well as the proposed model
Thank you
Chris

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi Chris
I sure have heard about Mr.Lele's work.
He is also involved like me in dveloping micro economies.Quiet a guy from what I have heard in the Industry.Has been involved with BD development in India for a decade.
Thanks for the links on centrifuges .
Penwalt is a Indian mob making centrifuges.
How did the hydrocylcone go?
I know the process they are talking about.In fact one of the scientist in our group had undergone a R&D project with them.
We looked at the cost economics and unfortunately it makes no commercial sence.
The plant has a continuos deouderiser,a continuos distillation column,a recycle of amino alcohol a hydrogenation section,...all $$$$$+heaps of instrumentation.
It indeed is a better process which is bit utility heavy.
So there you go.
Wish I could get hold of the Bio King guys.Never been to Monte Carlo.
But then a peasent here.Leave the laundering to the Kings I guess.

Cheers

Sauman

Hi Sauman
Thank you for that feedback This is what is really good about this forum It stops people going down a path that seems promising on paper Its like meeting some lady in a dark bar with the beer goggles on "What looks good by candlelight may not be so good by sunlight" Sometimes the sun don't shine for a while "excersise in futility"
Once again we are in agreement that it is a better process since no N or K is involved therfore no saponification Your comment about utility heavy is interesting The article in Ind.Eng.Chem. did not mention hydrogenation I can appreciate the deodoriser though these guys use Mink oil it stinks I may have to look at the tech paper again Initially it seem to me that TMAH at 25% strength solution in methanol to do the trick would be left behind Recovery of alcohol via a condensor is not really an issue I thought that one could recycle the Alcohol back into the feed line so as to maintain the excess on an ongoing basis It seems to me that a reaction time of 15 minutes at 65C with all the tri g's converted had some appeal especially according to the reasearch if no di's are found and less than 2% mono's remaining Furthermore the ratio of the Methanolysis of Canola at a molar ratio 72:25:3 seems quite good, that is oil,MeOH,TMAH Now at 65 C in a slightly pressurised vessel such as you depict would be quite easy to recover the alcohol on an ongoing basis or at the end of the reaction At the end of the day why would you bother recovering the MeOH anyway it is a small component All the same thanks for the feedback
Keep it Up
Cheers

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Containerised Plants

Here's another link for centrifuges

http://www.cadence.com.au/directory/...s/Centrifuges/

Hi Tubby, you to Sauman
Have a look at my reply to Sauman tubby there may be something in this I really want to see if there is any legs to it any input from others will be good
Here is a link for centrifuges that seems promising ther is a fair choice there http://www.aaronequipment.com/catego...p?categoryId=7 if you click on the choice bar for different categories you will get a fair collection to investgate
By the way Sauman these guys have a fiar colections of reactors as well have a peep
Cheers
Chris

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi Tubby, you to Sauman
Have a look at my reply to Sauman tubby there may be something in this I really want to see if there is any legs to it any input from others will be good
Here is a link for centrifuges that seems promising ther is a fair choice there http://www.aaronequipment.com/catego...p?categoryId=7 if you click on the choice bar for different categories you will get a fair collection to investgate
By the way Sauman these guys have a fiar colections of reactors as well have a peep
Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris & Tubby
Thanks and cheers.
Will have a peep and share if anything crops up.
We will get there together.

How did the cylcones go Chris?

For that would be a real cheapo option.
All the best.

Cheers
Sauman

[Tubby Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Tubby]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi Dimitri -Biodys,
Thanks for the input - I received a mail from your company on the 13/6 - Thanks - I will fill out the Q & A form and return. In this email it was indicated that the separator is only sold as part of a complete system - is this correct?

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Containerised Plants

Hi Chris & Tubby
Thanks and cheers.
Will have a peep and share if anything crops up.
We will get there together.

How did the cylcones go Chris?

For that would be a real cheapo option.
All the best.

Cheers
Sauman

Hi Sauman
Was Rome built in a day? (Joke) We are still mucking around we have not had a crack at it, nothing to report Had a bit of a delay with other pressing matters The priorities have shifted Nevertheless we are pursuing it
Just by the way Sauman I am quite sure that a good old cream separator used in a dairy operation would most likely do the trick The principle is exactly the same and I have a suspision that I come across an Indian manufacturer in the past that made them fairly cheaply He was located somewhere up in the Punjab near Jalanda I am sure you can track him down
It was a rather antiquated design hand operated job but it did the job well I think for a trial it would be ok with the addition of a pulley and an electric motor with a variable speed drive control would not be a hard thing to do If it does not do the trick I am sure you can still sell it to a farmer at a discount and he wil get an electric one for the price of a manual job
Have a think about that
I think he was asking some $300-400 each for them See how you go
Stay in touch
Cheers
Chris