What is this stuff?

[big g Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close big g]

Hi all. Calling all experts! I'm a newbie but I've made a couple of batches of BD - checked out OK (water test, Warnqvist etc) Running my wifes VW tdi on 50/50 - changed fuel filter etc. all looks fine.
However - Third batch. after mixing meth. and starting conversion I discovered my electronic scales were malfunctioning - I carried the process to conclusion and then to check results reprocessed one litre BD using 10% Meth. 3.5g NaOH. Results showed a further estimated 5-8% fallout of glyc. etc.
I then reprocessed the entire batch using the above ratios.
After cool down I noticed a "skin"forming on top of the liquid in the processor. - I removed this but the more of this "stuff" I removed, the more it reformed. Huh - what is this stuff? Have I invented some new kind of plastic!
I also did a water test and got an emulsion that hasn't cleared after three hours?
What's happened? Is resultant BD worth washing? etc. Any advice, comment etc. would be appreciated.
Cheers, Big G.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: What is this stuff?

Way to many variables in this post to begin to troubleshoot.

You haven't said how meth you use or how much NaOH.

The skin sounds like a soap forming. When you've removed it, does it dry and stay hard or could you wash your hands with it?

Maybe you could offer more detailed descriptions about the batch that you feel went wrong.

Cheers

[big g Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close big g]

Re: What is this stuff?

[quote=joe;17067]Way to many variables in this post to begin to troubleshoot.


Dear Joe, Original process = 100lt WVO - usual source - tested re water
+ 20lt Methanol + 6.25 g NaOh - as indicated by titration - added as methoxide. processed one hour @ 50 - 55c
However at this time discover malfunction in electronic scales re weighing NaOH. - Content of NaOh could be over or under.
Reprocess one litre of the resulting product from first process using methoxide consisting of 10% meth and 3.5g NaOH.
Results show fallout of Glyc etc of approx 5 to 8%
SO because of this result - Reprocess original 100 lt. using methoxide as above i.e. 10% meth and 3.5G NaOH.
As BD cools "scum" or plastic like substance forms on top of liquid - removal of same only results in more forming.
Now 4 hours later and this "scum" is a malleable substance about the consistency of soft uncooked bread dough (nearest I can describe it)
ALSO - Water test results in emulsion - now slowly separating but certainly NOT ok.

I hope this is clearer for anyone who may like to help or offer an opinion.

Cheers Big G.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: What is this stuff?

Hello big g
The "Standard" Re-process is 1g NaOH/1.4g KOH mixed into about 35ml methanol for every litre of unwashed biodiesel in the reactor.
You have almost certainly used far too much NaOH in the reprocess and have probably made lots of soap as a result.
The skin is a soap skin that is forming as the methanol evaporates.

Keep washing. What has not turned into soap shold be very high conversion biodiesel.

[big g Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close big g]

Re: What is this stuff?

Thank you Tilly - and thanks for your advice re a previous post.
I have just been out and checked - and yes it looks/feels like soap! - even though it skimmed off in sheets that looked like plastic.
I got the ratios of meth/NaOH for re-processing off the " journey to forever" site. As I have discovered since starting this project there are many varied and sometimes misleading ideas/theories on the subject of BD. Again thanks Cheers Big G.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: What is this stuff?

Hello big g

The JTF website is the laughing stock of the biodiesel world. At best the information is hopelessly out of date and inaccurate.
Enjoy the photo's but for goodness sake do not believe a word you read about producing biodiesel on that website.

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: What is this stuff?

I also did a water test and got an emulsion that hasn't cleared after three hours?

You mean you did a jar test? Try the same thing with salty water. Throw a heap of table salt into it and see what happens. Salt is good at breaking emulsions. The other thing that is good at breaking emulsions is heat.

[big g Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close big g]

Re: What is this stuff?

Hello all - lastest on this batch = split the 100 lt. into 4 x 25 separate batches, with the view of washing. Overnight the lot has turned into a "granulated jelly like substance" - soap? Tried heating small amount (50c) and it changed back to liquid. Tried washing with salty water as suggested by Marki - One hour later some separation but not looking too good. Maybe I should forget this lot and put it down to experience?
Any comments appreciated. Cheers Big G.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: What is this stuff?

Mix a 1 litre sample with 1 litre of used cooking oil and see what happens. the excess caustic will help reduce the FFA of the oil, and if there is still adequate methanol, you will possibly convert some of the veggie into biodiesel.

You might just get some fuel out of this using this method.
I have not tried it, but it has some potential.

Tony

ps, feel free to disprove my idea, I have a tough skin (flameproof)

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: What is this stuff?

You could have BD that has a hight melt point and it is simply solidifying from the top down as the temperature drops.

[elzyooo Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close elzyooo]

Re: What is this stuff?

Hello big g

The JTF website is the laughing stock of the biodiesel world. At best the information is hopelessly out of date and inaccurate.
Enjoy the photo's but for goodness sake do not believe a word you read about producing biodiesel on that website.

i am making Biodiesel and used that website, would that make the Biodiesel i made less usuable than other recipies? what would you say is a good recipie to use

thanks for your help

Elinor.

[yorta2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close yorta2]

Re: What is this stuff?

Elinor, I started the biofuel experience by reading JTF. It gave me the inspiration and the basic ideas I needed to start my setup. However, I soon learned that much more information was available, and some of it was much more up-to-date. JTF is a good starting point, but some things (such as titration and a few other important issues, like base amounts of NAOH or KOH) are just not good enough. Look at it by all means, but also look at this site and also this one too: Biodiesel & SVO Forums - Powered by eve community

They all ahve good ideas and I have never made a bad batch, but I have had a couple of emulsions, mainly due to trying to cut corners. Take your time and make good fuel!

[elzyooo Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close elzyooo]

Re: What is this stuff?

thankyou for your help.

elinor.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: What is this stuff?

Hello Elinor,
The best thing that I can say about the JTF website is that provided you do not use either of Aleks Kac's methods which are nonsence, you should achieve separation using the other formulas on the JTF website. Because they do not use enough NaOH/KOH in the single stage reaction you will not achieve very high conversion biodiesel.

A good formula for making very high conversion biodiesel is to mix 5g NaOH+ (TitrationX 1.15) into 200- 220ml methanol for every litre of oil you will react if you are using the single stage method.

Many diesel engines do not require very high conversion biodiesel and will run just fine with the lower conversion biodiesel you would make using the JTF formulas.

I also suggest you do not use a blender to make your biodiesel in and the "Shake-um up" test is a meaningless test for quality.

i am making Biodiesel and used that website, would that make the Biodiesel i made less usuable than other recipies? what would you say is a good recipie to use

thanks for your help

Elinor.