URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave,
I have read through your posting again and see no mention of batch 4 in the first post. When did you do batch 4 or do you mean batch 3?

Did you put the batch you reprocessed in your car?

If you are doing your re-process as if the biodiesel were unprocessed WVO you are doing it wrong. The biodiesel was NOT unprocessed WVO, it has been processed, all the FFA's were converted to soap and the vast majority of triglycerides have been converted into methyl esters.
The ACCEPTED re-process of biodiesel which has been processed with plenty of reactants the first time is 1g NaOH/1.4g KOH mixed into 50ml methanol. per litre biodiesel being reprocessed.
10 times out of 10 this will give you virtually 100% conversion.

If you had performed your re-process with NaOH instead of KOH, the biodiesel would have turned into a big lump of solid soap within a few minutes and that would have been the end of it.
But, because you used KOH with the vast excess of reactants you used in the reprocess, you turned your biodiesel into liquid soap mixed with methanol. And if you were lucky there may have been a bit of biodiesel remaining too.

The faint line of "seperation" you observed was likely the meniscus of the Liquid soap/methanol/biodiesel.

From reports I have read, finding glycerine in the water trap when using un-washed biodiesel is not unusual, expecially if it is not allowed to settle for several weeks.

In my experience, diesel engines will run for years and years on low conversion biodiesel.
Tilly

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Are you saying that the biodiesel I put in my tank was liquid soap? I didn't do the reprocess test on the entire batch, only 1L of it.
When you say 10 times out of 10 this will give you 100% conversion, what do you mean by that? I thought the point was not to convert it to 100% but to see how much unconverted WVO there was left in the biodiesel. Or are you saying that BY converting the 1L to 100 THEN you can see how much extra by-product settles out?
I read about your pat pended test, but I though it was only for NaOH. You're saying I can use KOH in the reprocess test if I used KOH in the original process? Is 1.4g for 99% pure KOH, bc I'm working with %90 pure.

Thanks,
Dave

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave,
I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant you had re-processed the whole batch.

When you do a reprocess you will convert remaining mono, di and triglycerides into biodiesel.
If you already have very high conversion biodiesel and re-process it you will also make a lot of soap.
That is why the World Famous Dr Pepper ASTM reprocess method (Pat Pend) gels, it is the NaOH soap.

The batch that you used too much reactants in initially should have been very high conversion with some extra soap but I would think it would have been OK to use.
You have to understand that I have never used KOH so am not familiar with the quirks it may have when the reaction goes wrong. I do know it is unlikely to form a soap gel.

So exactly which batches of biodiesel did you use yesterday. Where does batch 4 come in, I can not find it in the discussion?

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

ok, I understand that Tilly. Perhaps someone with a little more experience with KOH could help me understand that part.
I made a mistake there, in the post where I describe my test-run, batch 2=batch 1, and batch 4=batch 3. I'll go back and edit that, thanks.

So if your reprocess test using NaOH is SUPPOSED to gel, what is SUPPOSED to happen when using KOH in your test?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello dave

Yes, if you perform the World Famous Dr pepper ASTM Reprocess Test (Pat Pend) which used NaOH, and the biodiesel is already very high conversion it will mostly make soap from the biodiesel because there are no more mono, di, and triglycerides to react with. This soap will quickly make a gel.
If the biodiesel is not very high conversion, some of the NaOH is used converting the remaining Mono, Di and tri glycerides into biodiesel. Consequently there is not as much soap made and the gel fails to appear.
In this case glycerine will eventually settle out, but it may take a number of hours, perhaps overnight.

I suspect that if you performed the test using 1.4g KOH instead of 1g NaOH the results would be nothing settles out for very High conversion biodiesel and something settles out over a number of hours for lower conversion biodiesel.

I can see that NaOH's "Unforgiving" nature may have some benefits. It certainly lets you know when you have made too much soap.

I can not recall anyone else having the experience you have described.
When the car lost power did you replace any filters or just the fuel?
Did you do anything else besides replace the fuel.

Tilly

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

When the car lost power I thought it might be because of the filters, but when I checked, both the main filter and the in-line filters still looked OK (infact almost perfect, perhaps bc I was using a diesel blend).

However, in the process of checking the main filter, being the klutz that I am, I managed to break the glass water-trap on the bottom of the filter. So to be able to drive home I by-passed the main filter by attaching another in-line filter (brilliant idea by RASteve). So yes, I guess the problem could also have been the filter, but as I said, it looked ok to me. Perhaps I can take a picture of it and post tomorrow.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave,
Do you mean you can see the filter element inside both filters?
I know I can see the filter element inside the inline filter I have but the main filter is a canaster filter and the element is not visible.

I am wondering whether you might have not tightemed up the water drain properly and perhaps got some air in the line.
When was the last time the filters were changed.

Tilly

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Yes I can see the filter inside both filters. I have a 296 filter, and have seen two different versions - one has solid metal top and bottom so that you can't see the actual filter at all, and the other one has a bunch of circles cut out around the top so that you can see down into the filter. It's not the most clear view, but from when I looked in I could see that the tops of the filter still appeared light in colour and no goo or gunk or black had accumulated (sp?) in view.
Both times previously where I drained using the plastic bung on the bottom, I tightened as much as I could. But perhaps air still got in...
The in-line filter I know is new, but I'm not sure about the 296 filter.

Dave

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

However, if it WAS the fact that the filter was clogged as you seem to be suggesting, how come the in-line filter looked very clean the whole time?

Dave

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave,
When I bought my gemini, I suspect the main filter had been on the car for about 10 years when I changed it after the first month of biodiesel use. At least what came out of the filter smelled like it was.
The small inline filter I had put on the car was only about 2 weeks old.

Tilly

[Dodge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dodge]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Do those small inline filters do anything i thought those filters only blocked solid particles like rust and dirt.
I ran my ford courier on 100% biodiesel today batch 1 and 2 looked crystal clear. engine ran ok with batch 1 but when i then gave it batch 2 it got exhaust fumes and just visible smoke then started to run a bit rough then started to miss on one cylinder not all the time just maybe once every 30 seconds then 20 seconds then 10 seconds i turned it off.
Changed back to dino diesel engine runs fine.
Had not checked batch 2 for glycerine so did that and yep some settled out, so i now believe that i cannot judge the quality by site alone. Will have to test.
Batch 1 smelt like a fish and chip shop nearby.
Batch 2 smelt like a fish and chip shop on fire.
So will slow up a bit look at how i have being doing things and then continue on.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dodge,
No you can not judge quality by sight.
I have never used un-washed biodiesel however I did pour some glycerine into the tank once by mistake.
The only time I have experienced rough running was when the filter(s)needed changing
The little inline filters are good at stopping glycerine and other junk in my experience. They clog much more frequently than the main one.

Tilly

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Boy a lot's happened in 48 hours, so I have a bit to say love it or hate it.

...BUT there was a faint line of separation about 1/2 inch from the top although both liquids appeared the same colour (I guess this is the methanol floating on top?). So I concluded that the biodiesel was acceptable, I guess incorrectly so.

I think you are right about it being methanol (methoxide to be more accurate) but I think there was seperation as describe above for different reasons. I think the reprocess amounts may have been to high or it wasn't mixed properly. Hard to say without knowing the exact heat, mixing procedure etc.

As describe earlier, glycerne seperation in the filter fron unwashed BD is normal. The amount of glycerine will be determined by settling time.

After 250km both filters looked the same and (when I was at about half a tank again) I added another 5L of biodiesel (batch 2, the overdose batch)
At 300km I found another 1cm of by-product in the water trap (now ~half full), still none in the in-line filter which still looked great. I drained the by-product.
At 350km the water trap was half-full again, and so again, I drained it .
At 400km the water trap was AGAIN half-full and so I drained it again. However, at this point when I started the car it ran for about 50m and then sputtered for a minute and died. I tried starting the car again and after a while it started, but died shortly afterwards in a similar fashion. I tried once more with the same results.

Two points here. One; as tilley picked, up the break down was right after a water trap evacuation. Pointing to air in the line etc. Second as described above (batch 2, the overdose batch) had been added and may have been part of the problem. As cetane and octane are at the opposite ends of the same spectrum and are inversely proportional, ie, spark ignationability (sorry) against pressure/heat combustability, the "over dose of methanol" may have played a part after the engine had cooled sufficiently making the fuel harder to combust. This occured after the water trap was evacuated at the 400Km mark. Also Dave you haven't accurately described was was beeing drained from the water trap. Photo's (although impracticle) or a more accurate description of smell texture from each point may have been helpful. It may be there was have been more clues as to what was passing through the fuel line.

So I was forced to conclude that it was the fuel and therefore drained the tank of the remaining biodiesel/diesel mix and filled with diesel. Immediately after doing so the car ran fine and I was able to drive the rest of the 200km home with no problems.
So I am perplexed.

So would I be. I would have drained the fuel as well or topped it up with diesel to get going again. And this is part of the problem with the image of Biodiesel. Backyard brewers like our selves making fuel with no way of testing it and then breaking down on the side of the road. At least you seem dave to have the ability to analyse the problem and be able to get going again. The fuel probably was the problem but I dont think it was not "converted" properly. Remember people run straight oil or WVO with out any conversions of any sort. So unconverted oil in Biodiesel isn't going to stop a car from running. Methanol, glycerine or water in unwashed or properly unsettled" oil may well stop the car.

If it WAS the biodiesel, how would the biodiesel have caused such a severe reaction so quickly?EVEN when mixed with diesel!!

Remeber the over dose batch. WHo know how much residual methanol was in batch 2. And you did say that batch one was prewashed, maybe there was water in the biodiesel.

I was under the impression that poorly converted biodiesel COULD be used, but just not for prolonged periods of time.

It can if properly washed or allowed to settle.

And the problem even occured with NO (I would think) by-product getting into the engine!

I doubt it did other wise it wouldn't have been remedied by increasing the petrol diesel ration. This problem smacks of low cetane fuel.

But if it WASN'T the biodiesel, then how could the diesel have suddenly made things better again?

Increasing the cetane number.

I have to think it was the biodiesel, which means settling for a week is not enough to produce useable biodiesel, even though after that time no additional by-product was separating.

I'm not sure this is the only conclusion one can draw. I settle for one week and also use filtered WVO in up to a B90 ratio (break down below). I have about an 80 litre tank. I typically use about 10 litres diesel, 50 litres biodiesel and 20 litres WVO. I have had no problem except a few starting problems while I was working out the WVO ration. Cant used more than about 30 %. I have never overdosed with methanol and think this has a huge part of the problem given its introduction in the problem.

It also struck me how much a difference a simple 5% prewash made - no glycerine until 200km, but with the non-washed bio there was glycerine separated in just 50km.

This is a real eye opener for me if it was done scientifically. But with all of the variables in this equation I doubt any conclusions can be drawn. I may investigate this further however.

So I guess this is a lesson to everyone to wash their biodiesel?

Again I have to say this is a huge leap. There have been to many variables to land at this conclusion. I can speak for my self and the small few (who may well represent a larger quiet minority) who dont wash and use WVO, that may aggresively debate this.

Dave put this down to experience and move forward. Another point I thought I'd touch on only because you mentioned it once way back in an earlier post is both water and methanol must be allowed to evaporate. If you are only seperating and especially if your prewashes and overdosing batches with methanol, if must be allowed to dry/evaporate as well as seperate.

Dave take the good advise that coming from everyone in this forum, make a plan and stick close to it. If you deviate with things like prewashes and adding to much methanol you must allow for drying/evaporating time. This is what I'm concluding your break down is from. The statement "badly converted biodiesel will run in cars" is true but it must be allowed to dry and settle adequately.

Phew...

Joe

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Joe

I doubt the problem was methanol.
The vast majority of the methanol goes out with the glycerine layer.
In my tests when reacted with 200m methanol per litre WVO there is only 2% methaol in the unwashed biodiesel.
Even if his overdosing double this which is unlikely there would have been only 4% methanol. People regularly use 20% petrol in their biodiesel and WVO with no problem.

I suspect he had either a clogged filter (Very likely) or air in the fuel line.
I have had old fuel filters suddenly clog while playing around with them, this is not unusual in my experience.
Also his car ran fine once the filter was changed.

Tilly

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Joe

I doubt the problem was methanol.
The vast majority of the methanol goes out with the glycerine layer.
In my tests when reacted with 200m methanol per litre WVO there is only 2% methaol in the unwashed biodiesel.
Even if his overdosing double this which is unlikely there would have been only 4% methanol. People regularly use 20% petrol in their biodiesel and WVO with no problem.

How did you do the tests?

I suspect he had either a clogged filter (Very likely) or air in the fuel line.

Air leak yes, but other wise clogged with what. They dont clog with petrosludge in such a small time. He was draining the filter every 50-100Ks. And why stop so suddenly and not have gradual loss of power.

Also his car ran fine once the filter was changed.

Actaully he also added more fuel at the same time. It wasn't just a change in filter. He said the filter looked OK to the eye. A clogged filter wouldn't look OK to the eye. See below.

Thinking that the main filter might be clogged, even though the in-line filter looked fine still, I took it off but it still looked OK to me (an untrained eye however).
So I was forced to conclude that it was the fuel and therefore drained the tank of the remaining biodiesel/diesel mix and filled with diesel. Immediately after doing so the car ran fine and I was able to drive the rest of the 200km home with no problems.

Sorry dave not a burn but this whole experiment was a waste of time from a scientific point of view. Too many variables and more than one thing done at a time to fix/remedy a problem.

I've just edited this comment to quantify what I wrote above. Dave by this I mean you have affected the scientific process beyond repair with the addition of to many variables and no conslusion can be accurately drawn. Also you have probably damaged your own confidence in making biodiesel.

My advice is to wipe the slate clean, take what you've learned from this, forget the water/methanol/airleak/clogged filter and what ever else might have gone wrong or been the cause and start fresh.

Interesting topic though.