URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Joe,
I performed my tests using a pot still.
I performed a number of them.
I found that about 30% of the glycerine layer was methanol and 2% of the biodiesel was methanol when reacted with 200ml methanol per litre WVO.
Neutral performed similar tests using scales and evaporating the methanol and came up with similar numbers.

Dave did not know how old the main filter was, he had only changed the inline filter. Dave was only draining the water out of the sediment bowl on the bottom of the filter, this has nothing to do with the filter proper.
I had a diesel filter clog that had never run biodiesel.

There was nothing so wrong with his fuel that it should not run in an old Peugeot indirect injection diesel engine

A clogged filter looks fine to the eye, especially to the eye of someone inexperienced in what he is looking for. They are just a bit darker than they originally were.

Tilly

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Joe,
I cannot understand why you believe that

I doubt it did other wise it wouldn't have been remedied by increasing the petrol diesel ration. This problem smacks of low cetane fuel.

From what I have read, Biodiesel cetane is always much higher than petroleun diesel cetane.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

The point of debating this is counter productive. If there were clearer parameters is would be easier to pin point. But I just have a gut feeling that the fuel (or a air leak from the water trap) was the problem. May be it wasn't a cetane issue. Who knows the fuels isn't available to be tested. But its been made by a newby who washed one batch with out adequately drying it. Mixed another batch with methoxide that seems not to even have been mixed properly again who knows. Then they broke down on the side of the road after a top up and was remedied with draining and filling with more fuel (and removing/replacing the filter).

Its just my gut reaction and I'll stick by it that the fuel was the issue. It'll be hard to prove for or against except by the anedotal evidence provided. Dont want this to become a flame so this is the last I'll say about this.

Sorry all to offend. Just putting in my 2 cents worth.

Joe

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave
I think there is still a lot that can be learned from your experience.
Do you still have the fuel you drained from the tank?
May I suggest an experiment?

Pour exactly a litre of it into a clear plastic container and carefully mark on the container below the meniscus with a fine tipped marker where level of the biodiesel is.
Then sit it in the sun with a fly screen over the top and allow it to sit until the line of the biodiesel stops falling. Mark the new level of the fuel in the container. Make sure you mark below the meniscus.
Then empty the container and fill it with water exactly to the bottom line.
Then carefully measure how much water is needed to fill the container to the top line.
That is how much methanol was in the diesel.

Do you still have the main fuel filter?
What colour is the paper in the filter?
Is there any way of sealing up the broken part and gently blowing through the input of the filter to see how hard it is to blow through?

You will need to be thinking about putting on a new main filter. The little inline ones are not of a low enough micron rating to use for more than an emergency

Tilly

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Joe

I never considered trying to get to the bottom of Davids problem should turn into a flame war.
I do not mind you disagreeing with me. I have been wrong before and redially admit when I am. My self worth is not tied up with needing to be correct all the time in a field I am not trained professionally in. I was often wrong in the field I was trained in.

Unfortunatly my gut feelings are often incorret.
My gut feeling is that if I dropped a cannon ball and a golf ball off the Leaning Tower of Pizza at the same instant the Cannon ball would hit the ground first. Apparently this is not what happens.

I can find no reason for the fuel being a problem. I am told an old indirect injection diesel engine will run on 100% petrol until the injector pump fails.
The fuel was made with KOH so a gel is very unlikely.
The Sedimenter was apparently catching the glycerine and water.
Even if there were 10% methanol in the fuel which is streaching the imagination, the engine should have run fine.

However I have experienced exactly what Dave described and it was a plugged filter.

I have never experienced an air leak in the fuel system.

Tilly

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hi tilly,

yeah I also am not trained professionally nor in anyother way except through my own research and reading. So in the words of another great Aussie farmer. I see my self as an armchair chemist. I have however seen (and unfortunately) been a part of threads that have quickly
gotten out of hand, so I wanted you to know that certainly didn't to go down that path. I would much rather back away from a contraversial comment or topic that mar an other wise interesting (albeit negative) experience. As you said in your earlier there is more to learn from this than meets the eye and suggesting the test that you've listed above is a good start.

Looking back another comment I wanted to qualify was the one about the methoxide sitting on top of the biodiesel in the reprocess test. I also have not mixed a batch adequately and had methoxide sitting on top. I've removed the methoxide from on top, reheated the oil readded the methoxide and mixed again and had success in cracking the batch. and got an equal amount of glycerine out of it. Done that more than once.

Also I was under the impression that the higher octane a fuel the lower the cetane number. So according to that I wouldn't have thought that petrol would combust. But who knows.

My gut feeling is that if I dropped a cannon ball and a golf ball off the Leaning Tower of Pizza at the same instant the Cannon ball would hit the ground first.

Given that the principles here are attraction between two objects, the attraction between the earth and the cannon ball would be stronger and than the earth and the golf ball. So allowing enough time and a low friction environment the cannon ball would eventually take over.

Although I wonder how the dimples on the golfball might behave in a low fricxtion environment??!?

First impressions often are the most correct. Food for thought.

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

wow, lot of action last night! Good to see.
Well to answer some questions
1) all the batches, including the overdose batch, were all dryed for a day in the sun until they appeared crystal clear as the pictures indicate
2) I do still have the main filter and the paper, from what I can see, appears a whitish-yellow. I will take pictures of the filter and post them tonight.

Tilly, I'm not sure I could actually perform your experiment - Melbourne has no sun at the moment, and isn't supposed to get any for the rest of the week (and I would like to leave before then!). However, I DID keep the fuel I drained off so I was thinking another (albeit less accurate) test might be to reconnect a new main filter and try the same fuel again. This will tell me whether it was the filter.

I believe I'm going to move on from this experiment by investing in a bubbler to be able to dry my fuel so that I can then have the capacity to wash the fuel. I will initially try doing just pre-washes, perhaps 10-15%, and if that produces good results - then sweet. If not, I will try some additional washes. But I think I will have to wash my bio.....unfortunately. I would much rather drink the water.

Dave

I just need to find a battery powered bubbler...anyone know where I can find one in melbourne?

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

I think I should expand on that post.

I see problems with both theories

The methanol theory - Besides Tilly's points about methanol levels, I allowed the overdose batch to dry in the sun so the methanol should have evaporated, unless it is somehow trapped in the biodiesel

The filter theory - besides the fact that to me it appeared clear, the in-line filter still remained clean. If the main filter was to be clogged to point where the engine was starved of fuel, the in-line filter should have been correspondingly clogged.

The air in the fuel line MAY have some basis, but I was draining from the bottom of the bung, so air shouldn't have been able to get into the fuel. But I'm not expert here by a long shot, so it's a possibility.

I know that I didn't approach this very scientifically....regrettably, because now I'm in a pickle. But even if the unwashed biodiesel worked OK, having to pull over and drain the filter ever 50km is very impractical which is why i'm saying that regardless of whether the unwashed biodiesel was up to snuff I still am going to go ahead with washing (as a week of settling is about as much as I could see possible).

However, another idea was passed to me by another member of the forum. He suggested that after a week of settling that I STOP the reaction from continuing by adding 4% water. Then any remaining unreacted WVO would STAY as unreacted WVO in the fuel and not separate out in my fuel tank. Can anyone confirm this theory?

Dave

[RASTEVE Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close RASTEVE]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

I just need to find a battery powered bubbler...anyone know where I can find one in melbourne?

Dave, how are you doing? Glad we got you sorted out the other night. My dad was a bit worried!!

It might really be worth your while to get a power inverter for your car - to run 240V appliances from the 12V socket in the car. A bubbler only draws a few watts and if you decide this is the only appliance you want to run in your car, then you only need a small inverter (say $50 on ebay).

Just a thought.

Cheers, Steve.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Hello Dave
The fuel from the batch that you made with excess methanol and KOH would have been extremely high conversion and was almost certainly NOT the problem.
That leaves the likely problem a lack of fuel. this lack of fuel can be caused by a number of things. Because the car re-started after changing the main fuel filter I would suggest the most likely cause to be a clogged fuel filter or air in the lines.

In your experience, what does the element of a clogged main filter look like?
In my limited experience, the element in a clogged main filter looks exactly like the element in a new filter. There may or may not be a difference in colour.

As far as I can tell you have no idea how old the main filter is.
In my observation people usually change the fuel filter on old diesels when the car stops. Your main filter may be a number of years old and have been nearly clogged before you bought the car.

In my experience, an old main filter can clog and stop the car while the new inline filter looks fine amd does not need changing.
In my experience one good way to make an old main filter clog and stop your car immediatly is to start doing things to the filter.

The inline filter normally has a larger micron rating than the main filter. That means small contaminants are still passing through the inline filter and being caught by the main filter.
Some of your biodiesel was unwashed and was not well settled as demonstrated by your need to continually empty the sedimenter on the main filter.
That means gunk was passing through the inline filter and being caught by the old main filter and sedimenter.

You said that changing the fuel and filter solved the problem immediatly. The fuel was not the likely source of the problem.

Tests have shown that after an hour the reaction has for all practical purposes stopped.
Tests have shown that by the following morning all excess KOH/NaOH in the biodiesel has been consumed in a side reaction making soap from biodiesel and the main reaction will be well and truely finished.
Tests have shown that if you allow the unwashed biodiesel sit for 3- 4 weeks no further glycerine will visably settle out.
If you are planning on mixing water with your biodiesel it makes no sence to wait 4 days, do it the same day and benefit from the positive aspects of doing a 5% water wash.

Tilly

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Yeah, I've looked into those steve, little too much money that I'd like to dish out, plus I picture myself drying overnight and I wouldn't want to keep my battery on all night. SO, there are bubblers that are battery powered so I'm currently looking for one of those.
Tilly, I think you're right.
Here are the pictures of my main fuel filter, my in-line fuel filter, and the in-line fuel filter that I used to by-pass the main fuel filter - in that order.
ok, pictures are going to have to wait - too big for the 125kb max

Dave

[Bio Popo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bio Popo]

Re: URGENT - Is this fuel acceptable?

Well, yesterday I went to buy a new glass trap for my fuel filter and while I was at it I asked the mechanic if my fuel filter was clogged. He said that it wasn't, and that I could tell it was clogged if the paper appeared darker or was flaking/falling apart. So that means it was either air in the line or the fuel.
I've since re-added that fuel that I drained back into tank (along with the 1/4-1/2 tank of dino diesel already in there).
And strangely, after just filling my lines with the fuel (after re-installing the fuel filter), I noticed hmmmmmm hard to describe....little bits of white slimey stuff on the glass bowl and fuel filter, which I assumed to be soap or something from the fuel. If so, then WOW, that must have been A LOT of soap and crap in that fuel for there to be so much noticeable in such a short period of time.
Drove the car for a bit though yesterday (maybe an hour or so) with the same fuel filter as before (just a new trap) and the old fuel mixed with more dino, and it seems to be running fine. So maybe it was just air in the line! Incidentally, I DO remember seeing tiny bubbles rising to the surface of the fuel in my in-line fuel filter at the late stages of my test-run, but I'm not exactly sure when that was.
This info help solve anything you think?

Dave