Water less washing

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Sauman,

experimentation will be needed.
Graham

Hi Graham,
I am travelling for a few days.I should be back in oz soon.
Would love to share all the stuff with you everyone in the forum re:alternate fuels.

And like you mentioned "experimentation"....is the only way to go.

We can only do it together

Cheers
Sauman

[Justin - OzFuelTech Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Justin - OzFuelTech]

Re: Water less washing

Ok if i had 100 litres of biodiesel to wash how much magnesol would be needed, and how much would it cost.
And how is it done.

You would need around 0.5% - 2% (depending on the soap content)
Therefore about 1kg of magnesol.
Magnesol is sold in ~20kg bags, currently I am not in a position to quote a price but as a estimate you are looking at $7 - $10 per kg for a small quantity purchase.
We are working to get this as cost competitive as possible.
You will also need a filter mechanism, I have heard of producers using pool filters which are relatively inexpensive. (This has also been mentioned in a previous thread)

Attached is a process diagram for using Magnesol.
Treatment Procedure:
1.) Ensure Full Transesterification reaction
2.) Separate methyl ester and glycerin phases
3.) Remove any excess methanol via flash evaporation if available (or other method)
4.) Add between 0.5 – 2% Magnesol
5.) Allow mix/resonance time of 10 – 15 minutes including 5 minute circulation time(below).
6.) If using a commercial filter ensure proper filtration by circulating mixture through filter vessel and back into reaction tank for 5 -10 minutes or until filtrate is clear.
7.) Once filtrate is free and clear of any particulate, fill finish product holding tank.
8.) To ensure that your methyl ester is free from particulate filter finished product with a 1 micron “absolute” filter media.

[Justin - OzFuelTech Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Justin - OzFuelTech]

Re: Water less washing

G Day Justin,
Do you have some datas regarding magnesol like test reports ,real time figures .
It would be very cool if you share it in the forum with us.

Cheers
Sauman

Hi Sauman,

Attached is a results sheet from using magnesol on two different sources.
Also http://www.anzacfueltech.com/biodies...ry-washing.htm
shows some images and information.

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: Water less washing

Thanks Graham,
Am sure everyone else in here will find the info usefull.

We can only do it together.
Cheers
Sauman

[Dodge Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dodge]

Re: Water less washing

Thanks Justin, your the first company rep that has posted on this site that has answered my questions in complete and straight forward style, well done.

When and where will it be available.

[shiner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close shiner]

Re: Water less washing

Hi all
this is an interesting topic about waterless washing. All though I did find another method of waterless washing on another bio site and wondered what your thoughts on this are?

GL's one day process

Be warned it is quite long thread, i think it has merret (spelling?)

Thanks
shiner

[yorta2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close yorta2]

Re: Water less washing

Justin, I have read quite a lot on magnesol as utilised in America and have seen distributors for the product in Australia, but only in the cooking arena, so welcome the contribution of your company, and look forward to some more concrete data with regard to cost, availability, any technical support data and whether you will stock filters etc. Good to hear from you.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Water less washing

Hey Yorta, Dodge (and the rest of you) if you like what someone is doing in the forum, why not add to their reputation? Eventually we can all use this to get some level of trust established in our community so that new people can easily identify what others think of people. Just click the little scales picture above someone's post to do this.

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Shiner,

I saw a thread on another forum about waterless washing. I thought about it, my curiosity got the better of me. I stand on notice for some of the following issues. Working on the suggested premise that the soaps etc does not release until the methanol has retreated.
After a 100 Lt process ( koh) I allowed to settle overnight, but, I open the gate valve to allow the Ethanol to bleed off, the end of the tube was supposed to be immersed in water but I fouled up. Overnight, I then drained off the Glycerin, ( there was about 3 to 4 litres less by quantity than normal) circulated the processor for a few minutes and dumped into my Wash tank. Still strong methanol aroma. I bubbled it with dual aquarium pump and an air tube from a fridge compressor. Powerful stuff. I became impatient after a couple of hours as nothing was happening, and I wanted a quicker reaction to finish this batch. I stopped bubbling and started to circulate the BD from wash tank out at bottom and back at the top. In the line I had a 10" water filter with a 60 micron washable filter, them into wash tank through a filter hung on a SS rod across top of tank a (pair of jeans leg, turned inside out gathered and tied at the bottom with electrical tie, turned again right side out) I have read somewhere that they can be a filter of around 5 micron. However, I pumped the bd back in the tank through the new filter, the the porosity of the filter was not enough for the circulating volume, so made a terminating T piece and couple elbows finishing with 2 pieces of 3/4" clear pvc and added the other leg, - Hey Presto! the 2 filters did not overflow but the bd oozed out of the flitters all over and also ran out at the bottom with the highest pressure. I walked away and left it alone. Nothing happened for 2/3 hours the a scum started to appear on the top. scooped it off with a pan bowl filter from Crazy Harry's ($2) and wow! soap kept skimming, from time to time kept at it. As time progressed, the bucket under the metal skimmer got to about half full (std 9 Lt plastic bucket) The oil began to shimmer like a clear whisky flowing from a waterfall, shine a light inside and it flashes with clarity. Intermittently, I took samples and put in a jar with water. Instant separation of absolutely clear water and clear BD. left to settle, over 15mins the water clouded. Oil stayed clear. You could actually see a small settling of the soap in thin rivulets from the oil. Done this continually over a period and the water became much clearer as time went on and more soap on the top. I did this for 24 hours. Boy! was the oil clean and shiny, very little scum which I couldn't understand as there was still a slight cloud in the water. Any slight scum traces, would not even stay in the filter but went straight through. So I scraped the bottom of the drum and there it was a approx 1/2" layer of jelly like soap all over the bottom. It is then Happy I was, that I had 2 clear 200Lt wash tanks so I pumped the wash tank out into a clean tank. The bottom was indeed covered with this layer of translucent Gel soap. I first thought was how unexpected the amount of physical soap presence there was. The sample was very clear. although I could not believe it is that easy. These results were totally unexpected. Very Hard to believe it could be so effortless, also, I expected to have to start at the beginning after fiddling around so I took no pics, apart from the very last water/oil jar.
I post this today just to pass on my empirical study based on comments I read somewhere else by a Graham I think it was. I will go back find and post for everyone to consider if any value in it for them. I would consider the worst thing that could perhaps happen is a final wash ( But then I dont really understand how far it has really gone, what is happening only info from more knowledgable members than I) I am going to do it again with pics this time.
Sorry this posting is so long and maybe you all know about it but it blew me away the speed at reaching such clear BD. I did not do a conversion test as I had no spare methanal handy, but, will use the last sample soon for a conversion test.
I will also post the page when I find it in case anyone interested.

Rgds

Dillyman

P.S. The old jeans cost me $3, ( $ 1,.50 each leg) Warning: the inside gets thick with soap. WASH IN HOT WATER - THOROUGHLY Could last for yonks.
I now own 3 pairs of such fine filters, - of interest get the most washed ones they perform better , BUT WASH IN HOT WATER BEFORE REUSE - I am not going to tell you why. You would quickly find out!!!!

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Shiner.

Sorry I should have notice the initials of Grahame that you already posted. The same as I mentioned in my tests

Rgds

Dillyman

[shiner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close shiner]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Shiner.

Sorry I should have notice the initials of Grahame that you already posted. The same as I mentioned in my tests

Rgds

Dillyman

Hi Dillyman

no worries about that

I was just curious about this method of Grahame's, as I am a complete newbie as this bio lifestyle. I am presently building my set up in the conventual way, Reactor / wash tank / dry tank / still (for methonal recovery).

It seems to me that the wash & dry Tank and the still can be combined it to a single vacume tank, it must have a removable lid to facilitate cleaning as you found out.

So after the reaction you drain off the glycerine and save it. Put the raw Bio in the vacume tank and recover the excess methanol from it this should be easy as the raw bio is quite warm and the methanol would boil off easily in a partial vacume.

After filtering you should be left dry clean Bio Ready for the car this would be stored to be used in your car.

Now put the waste glycerine in the vacume tank and recover the methonol from it, after you have as much of the methonol as is viable cost wise to run a vacume pump (probably a used refrigeration pump)
I think it would be best to save the liqud glycerine (that's if you are using KOH) untill you have enough to fill the vacume tank so the vac pump will not have to waste as much time removing the air from the tank if you had only threw in a few liters at a time to recover the methanol.

As I have stated I am only new at the Bio lifestyle so no flaming the new guy!! I am just trying to figure out the what would be best with regard to Bio production and Methanol recovery.

But after saying all of this I will be doing a few dozen batches the old school way to get enough experience up.

Regards shiner

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Shiner,

If you really want to know, the most of us are new to this game. No one I feel has all the perfect answers, that is why there are so many terrific suggestions, all meritus, If info is on offer for others advantage. There is nothing absolute, many variables, but genuine ideas for some of us that dont fully understand the dynamics of chemical reaction and outcomes. In Fact most of us will be newbies for a long time. Dont let that stop you offering any thoughts you may have (About BD I mean!!!) I would be interested in those ideas of yours, the things I dont understand is why you say it happens. To have understanding of a process and reaction it helps one to personally progress further. In fact I have acquired another 120 Lt HWS- fully insulated. I also have a 50 Lt HWS from the same source. That could be useful for the kind of venture you mention, when I understand the action. I have for many years used, and still do use a fridge compressor, one side for vacuum with a pvc pipe and a tire inflator on the end. This puts a variable vacuum pressure in a carboy through a tubeless tyre valve. By changing the connection either on vacuum or blow, I can pressurize or vacuum a carboy. Would also work on larger tanks, also great for vacuum bags for clamping irregular objects. Have a Stihl water pressure jet pump with a blown hose - this is dearer to replace than a new pressure pump so, when I understand I will give it a go. (have also acquired two LP gas tanks out of test. Multi - purpose usage, so if you or anyone els has the ideas to pass on in this area; I would be delighted to hear about it. In fact perhaps we should have a construction data base for these sort of ideas. Could save a lot of repetitive postings from our experts.
So Shiner, welcome to all us newbies, as we will never be as knowledgable as some of our more competent Gurus,

Rgds

Dillyman

[shiner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close shiner]

Re: Water less washing

Hi Shiner,

In fact perhaps we should have a construction data base for these sort of ideas. Could save a lot of repetitive postings from our experts.


Rgds

Dillyman

Dillyman

Thats a great Idea, Perhaps we should have a separate forum area for construction tips, ideas, pictures ect.....

So who is the boss man around here? would he be interested in such a thing?

Cheers shiner

[ellas40 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close ellas40]

Re: Water less washing

hi Sauman,
another thought has crossed my mind in my impatience to get my biofuel from reactor to fuel tank in less than one day. As posted earlier, I currently vacuum distill of all water and methanol, but it still took overnight for the soaps and glycerol to settle out completely.
I am getting a loan of a lab size filter plate, will coat the filter plate with DE, then compare Magnesol, and activated clay, (bentonite), which has many uses in clearing oils, wine, syrups, etc, but costs a fraction of Magnesol. I was wondering if anybody had tried bentonite.
Graham

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Water less washing

Hi all
If any one wants bentonite I can arrange it for them as I am in contact with the biggest resource of the stuff in Australia They own the mine
They supply it to the winerries so as to filter out the wild yeasts out of the grape juice prior to fermentation as well as filtering water oils etc In my view it should wark fine although I have not used the stuff myself
Let me know
Cheers
Chris