New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

[WesleyB Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close WesleyB]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

I have not tried the cement factory for CaO. But I did find 500 grams of CaO on line from "science stuff" for about 13 dollars plus shipping, then they hit me with some kind of dangerous material shipping charge which is 25 dollars. Part of my point in considering the Imisides method is that KOH has an strong affinity for water (it sticks to it strongly), so I dry the alcohol with CaO, then I dump in the KOH, then it is like a tug of war between CaO and the KOH for the tiny bit of water there. I don't have the know how or equipment to measure the amount of water left in solution. Does it go with the Potassium or the Calcium Oxide. I'll try to do it empirically (experimentally) to see if I can make it work starting with grain alcohol 95%. Thanks Dr Mark

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Hi Mark,

Please reread my original post and follow is step by careful step. If somehow you are still unable to get it to work, I suggest you go back to the Dr Pepper method.

Thank you for the vote of confidence on my procedure. I agree, when people find that the Imisidies method does not work they should go back to the methods that have been shown over the years to actually work.

It won't proceed at RT without the CaO

Of course it will go to completion without the CaO at RT (Room Temperature). I have shown you several graphs where GC testing has clearly show that the reaction will go to completion at RT with no CaO.

Advantages

3. Anyhdrous. Air washing is all that is required for clarification

What do you mean by Air washing? I can not recall you describing this procedure before.

disadvantages

You forgot to list that for most oil your procedure uses a huge excess of KOH

One other thing - there is a lot of talk on this site about the 3/27 test, as though it's important.
It's not.
Making biodiesel is all about one thing - reducing viscocity. It doesn't matter if you have unconverted triglycerides in your fuel.

Very few people agree with you on this point. No national standard agree with you. Most people and all national standards seem to think that having un-converted and partially converted triglycerides in their fuel is a very bad thing.
Have you performed any tests to justify your thoughts.

Yes I understand the stoichiometry and rxn mechanism. i was just suggesting that if you made one monoglyceride and 2 ME per trigly molecule you'd get more fuel, as it'd all be fuel with no gly.

A correction here. If you had 2 ME and one monoglyceride for every triglyceride molecule reacted your GC would not pass the ASTM standard for "Free and Total Glycerol" because of the extremely large quantity of "Bound glycerol" contained in the monoglyceride portion of the fuel

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

CONTINUATION

Hi Mark,

just a few questions/ observations about the things you have posted in the below box.

1. It won't proceed at RT without the CaO - There isn't enough methoxide ...

2. One other thing - there is a lot of talk on this site about the 3/27 test, as though it's important.
It's not.
Making biodiesel is all about one thing - reducing viscocity...

3. The only test that is really necessary is a viscosity test...

Point 1. When you say it will not proceed at RT without CaO, can you explain what you mean by "proceed". Clearly you are not talking about eventually passing the 3/27 test.

However, anyone who has actually done any experimenting knows that the reaction does proceed at room temperature without CaO as indicated by the glycerine/byproduct settling out and forming a layer on the bottom.
In fact, if I were to use the huge excess of KOH that you recommend in your formula with 20% methanol in the oil I typically process, I hve no doubt that the biodiesel produced at RT would have no trouble passing the 3/27 test.

Point 2 and 3. Can you explain what viscosity test you use, the equipment required to perform the test, and what you consider is an acceptable viscosity reading

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Tilly,
I also assumed RT meant Room Temperature, but reading it again, I now feel that the abbreviation RT refers to the reaction going to the Right, although that depends on how the chemical equation was written.

Dr Mark,
I have a lot of difficulty reading posts when posters use abbreviations without explaining them beforehand. Can you please provide an explanation for abbreviations if they are not in general usage on THIS forum. We are not mind readers.

Regards,
Tony

[WesleyB Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close WesleyB]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Dr. Mark; I read you understand the reaction mechanism of the transesterification reaction. Please explain it. I didn't find it in a book.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Hi Tony,

Throughout this thread Mark uses the phrase "proceed at room temperature" and "proceed at RT" interchangeably.
On page 4 the context of one of his posts makes it clear what Mark means by RT when he posted;
"...enough methoxide in solution to get the reaction to proceed at RT. If you wanted to get technical about it, you could dissolve the KOH, let it cool to RT and then add the lime and monitor the temperature..."
Again on page 5 Mark says;
"It doesn't need to fully dehydrate the methoxide solution. It just needs to pull the eq to the right to make enough MeO- to allow the rxn to proceed at RT"

Tilly,
I also assumed RT meant Room Temperature, but reading it again, I now feel that the abbreviation RT refers to the reaction going to the Right, although that depends on how the chemical equation was written

[250downunder Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 250downunder]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Tilly! Up at 5.00 am. on Christmas day, straight out into the garden to dig up the bone!!

[Andy Chee Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Andy Chee]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

I've got an idea for obtaining CaO, but might need someone to verify it.

The other night I watched a kids science show on TV where the presenter made glass in a microwave, using a couple stacked/nested small ceramic pots filled with charcoal as a kiln, and a small crucible in the charcoal to contain the silica.

I figure if a microwave kiln can generate temperatures high enough to melt glass, it should be high enough to drive CO2 out of CaCO3 to create CaO.

CaCO3 is the main component in garden lime and should be easily and cheaply available in the gardening section of your local hardware store.

It's a slow way to make large amounts of CaO for large batches, but it could be useful for anyone who wants to try a mini-batch.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

I've got an idea for obtaining CaO, but might need someone to verify it.

The other night I watched a kids science show on TV where the presenter made glass in a microwave, using a couple stacked/nested small ceramic pots filled with charcoal as a kiln, and a small crucible in the charcoal to contain the silica.

I figure if a microwave kiln can generate temperatures high enough to melt glass, it should be high enough to drive CO2 out of CaCO3 to create CaO.

CaCO3 is the main component in garden lime and should be easily and cheaply available in the gardening section of your local hardware store.

It's a slow way to make large amounts of CaO for large batches, but it could be useful for anyone who wants to try a mini-batch.

Yes it would work, but I'm afraid you've just reinvented the wheel - that's how it's done commercially now anyway. Calcium Carbonate Plant,Calcium Hydroxide Plant,Calcium Carbonate Plant Manufacturer,Calcium Hydroxide Plant Exporter,India

But don't bother trying it yourself - all you'd finish up with is a single solid lump. When it's done commercially, they somehow separate it into a fine powder which would require specialised equipment and processes

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

This is my final post on this thread. I'm afraid I don't have the time or interest to plough through all the posts on this. For those of you with an understanding of Chemistry, I've explained things several times over.

For those of you that don't, but have had your toes trodden on because someone that knows far more than you do about chemistry has developed a better method than yours, I'm not interested in playing your games.

For anyone with any serious questions, you can email me on drchemical@bigpond.com, or listen to my radio show online at 6PR - Homepage at 6:30 am every Wed morning.

And in case it isn't obvious, there's not a cent for me in posting this method. I posted it to help out fellow biofuelers with a far superior method to the current one. Use it if you wish, but if you'd prefer the Dr Pepper method, please be assured that I don't give a rodent's rump. Given the audience my radio show is now getting, and the traffic it is generating, I no longer have time for this forum.

Cheers
Mark

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Hi Mark,

This is my final post on this thread.

That is disappointing. I think that I can safely say that almost everyone here has learned a lot from your posts. We will all miss your input.

　

I'm afraid I don't have the time or interest to plough through all the posts on this.

I for one am sorry to hear that you no longer have time to share your vast biodiesel production knowledge with us. I hope it is not a family crisis.
　

For those of you with an understanding of Chemistry, I've explained things several times over.

Yes, of course I immediately understood exactly what you meant. I am sure the people who did not at first understand what you were saying appreciated your repeating it.
As they say, 'The two best teachers are "Pete" and "Repete"

For those of you that don't, but have had your toes trodden on because someone that knows far more than you do about chemistry has developed a better method than yours, .

Exactly my thoughts. That is why I wear and recommend everyone should wear Steel-toed work boots. They are the perfect protection against trodden toes.
　

And in case it isn't obvious, there's not a cent for me in posting this method.

This is where you and I differ. Over the years I have made several Squillion dollars with my "World Famous" procedures. I have seven numbered swiss bank accounts working flat out 24/7 just keeping up with the royalties!

Use it if you wish, but if you'd prefer the Dr Pepper method, please be assured that I don't give a rodent's rump.

Thank you for again recommending my Dr Pepper method. I just looked and another 1/3 squillion dollars has just been deposited in my Swiss Bank Accounts.

[250downunder Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 250downunder]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Damn! No more bone! What will Tilly do at 5.00 a.m. on New Years day??

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

This is at least the 2nd dummy spit by Dr. Mark whoever he is.
He declared last time it was his last ever post, inferring that no-one here had the intelligence to be worth his precious time.
Don't worry he'll be back in a year or so when he wants something.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

Keep the personal comments out please guys

Tim

[WesleyB Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close WesleyB]

Re: New Methods #2. The Imisides Method

I have just mail ordered 2 kilograms of calcium oxide from Austin, Texas for a cost of 91 American dollars. On page 166 of the book A Text-Book of Practical Organic Chemistry by Arthur Vogel, Third edition, it gives a procedure for "Dehydration of rectified spirit by quicklime" That's drying alcohol using calcium oxide. It is similar to this Imisides method. I tried to make ethyl biodiesel using 190 proof grain alcohol, it didn't work well. Now I'm going to try drying the 190 proof grain alcohol using calcium oxide like this Imisides method. I think there is something to this methjod if your alcohol is wet, but it is an extra expense.