bio hard to wash HELP

[fiwood2006]

hi all, i have made 2 lots of bio from new canola,i think i have 2 good batches but find it makes the wash water,(bubble wash) very milky white within about 3-4 hrs. i changed the water 4 times and the water is still becoming milky, the bio on top looks to be fine but cant seem to get clear water . the first time i washed, the bio got milky and i turned of the wash,left over-night , put in sun the next day and it cleared up . have not started to wash it yet as am scared of forming soap.any idears.
thanks all.

[quesoburgesa]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

I might be wrong, but it sounds like you may have used too much catalyst. How much oil, meth, and Naoh/Koh did you use?

Justin

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Washing biodiesel needs to be done gently for the first wash or 2, then increasing the agitation later. I have heard of people washing up to 8 times before getting clear wash water.

[fiwood2006]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

[quote=quesoburgesa]I might be wrong, but it sounds like you may have used too much catalyst. How much oil, meth, and Naoh/Koh did you use?

Justin[/quote

hi justin , i used new canola, 200 ml of methanol, 3.5 g of naoh,per litre
15 litre batch , mixed for 1 hr with drill mixer in in a 20 litre drum, i only got about 1.8 litres of glycerine from the 3 litres of sodium meth that went in, any advice is with much thanks thanks jeff

[fiwood2006]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Washing biodiesel needs to be done gently for the first wash or 2, then increasing the agitation later. I have heard of people washing up to 8 times before getting clear wash water.

thanks tony , ill try to wash more gently do you think i mite have used to much naoh , i used 3.5 g per litre
thanks jeff

[joe]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

hi all, i have made 2 lots of bio from new canola,i think i have 2 good batches but find it makes the wash water,(bubble wash) very milky white within about 3-4 hrs. i changed the water 4 times and the water is still becoming milky, the bio on top looks to be fine but cant seem to get clear water . the first time i washed, the bio got milky and i turned of the wash,left over-night , put in sun the next day and it cleared up . have not started to wash it yet as am scared of forming soap.any idears.
thanks all.

hi fiwood.

congratulations on your first batches. SOunds like you are headed for success. Prehaps in the future you could use a little more NaOH. More llike 5grams per litre (plus titration) would be on the mark.

As for your washing. For a first time producer you have done very well not to make emulsion. Its a trap for new comers. You sensibly turned off the wash just when the bio got milky and was able to allow it seperate and dry using time and sunlight. Also bear in mind that the bio will become clouded, but not to the point of solidifying or emulsion. (Done it my self)

Dont be too concerned about how many times you have to wash. Your water may be hard and not bonding with the water straight off. But the first two washes should be very gentle so as not to cause emulsion. Try heating the bio and water while mixing. Its harder for the two to emulsify with heat. I've been heating to 60 or above and allow the swirling water to collect the soap. Also heat will break an emulsion, so fear not.

Keep going, sound like your going great guns. ALso after your last wash when the water is finally clear the bio will be a bit milky like orange juice. Heat or bubbling can dry this out.

Cheers
Joe

[Tony From West Oz]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

thanks tony , ill try to wash more gently do you think i mite have used to much naoh , i used 3.5 g per litre
thanks jeff

I seriously doubt that 3.5 g/l of NaOH would be "too much NaOH". In some circles, 4.5 or even 5 g/l is considered the catalyst amount, to which the titration amount is added.

In your first post you said:

hi all, i have made 2 lots of bio from new canola,i think i have 2 good batches but find it makes the wash water,(bubble wash) very milky white within about 3-4 hrs. i changed the water 4 times and the water is still becoming milky, the bio on top looks to be fine but cant seem to get clear water . the first time i washed, the bio got milky and i turned of the wash,left over-night , put in sun the next day and it cleared up . have not started to wash it yet as am scared of forming soap.any idears.

Does this mean that you have bubble washed, but have not agitated the biodiesel/water combination?

To check for the possibility of forming an emulsion take a proportionate sample of biodiesel and water and shake the $h!t out of it. If it forms an emulsion, then wash gently (stir with a paddle). Re test to see if the next wash can be more vigorous.

Bubble washing is usually quite vigorous, but can be tempered by restricting air flow to a few bubbles per second.

Regards,
Tony

[fiwood2006]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

hi fiwood.

congratulations on your first batches. SOunds like you are headed for success. Prehaps in the future you could use a little more NaOH. More llike 5grams per litre (plus titration) would be on the mark.

As for your washing. For a first time producer you have done very well not to make emulsion. Its a trap for new comers. You sensibly turned off the wash just when the bio got milky and was able to allow it seperate and dry using time and sunlight. Also bear in mind that the bio will become clouded, but not to the point of solidifying or emulsion. (Done it my self)

Dont be too concerned about how many times you have to wash. Your water may be hard and not bonding with the water straight off. But the first two washes should be very gentle so as not to cause emulsion. Try heating the bio and water while mixing. Its harder for the two to emulsify with heat. I've been heating to 60 or above and allow the swirling water to collect the soap. Also heat will break an emulsion, so fear not.

Keep going, sound like your going great guns. ALso after your last wash when the water is finally clear the bio will be a bit milky like orange juice. Heat or bubbling can dry this out.

Cheers
Joe

hi joe do you think if i used more naoh that it would make more soap ?
i am useing new canola not used , it seems to be mixing and settling the glyc out ok , the glyc is a runy deep red colour thanks joe , thanks for the advice

[fiwood2006]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

I seriously doubt that 3.5 g/l of NaOH would be "too much NaOH". In some circles, 4.5 or even 5 g/l is considered the catalyst amount, to which the titration amount is added.

In your first post you said:
Does this mean that you have bubble washed, but have not agitated the biodiesel/water combination?

To check for the possibility of forming an emulsion take a proportionate sample of biodiesel and water and shake the $h!t out of it. If it forms an emulsion, then wash gently (stir with a paddle). Re test to see if the next wash can be more vigorous.

Bubble washing is usually quite vigorous, but can be tempered by restricting air flow to a few bubbles per second.

Regards,
Tony

hi tony i am useing new canola ,after the first wash i put 250ml of bio and 250 of water in a small bottle and did the shake the tripe out of it trick and it went to milk and i got scared but in the morning it had settled out (nice) so i am back to the washing should be ok i think . thanksfor the help . regards jeff

[joe]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

hi joe do you think if i used more naoh that it would make more soap ?
i am useing new canola not used , it seems to be mixing and settling the glyc out ok , the glyc is a runy deep red colour thanks joe , thanks for the advice

Its commonly been accepted for some time now that 5 grams and 7 (7.8) grams of NaOH and KOH respectively is the desired base amount to use. This is both for clean and waste vege oil and is before titration. There is nothing to suggest that moving up from 3.5 grams to 5 grams will create more soap. You are however more likely to get a better conversion which is the name of the game.

Your runny deep red oil seems on the mark although from my understanding using NaOH will produce a thicker glycerine and it can even be a solid so be prepared for that outcome. Consider this your experimental phase and dont be afraid to increase your base amount. I use KOH and went from 5 grams to 7 grams after more reading and I now always use 7 grams as a base and have never had soap problems.

Getting these basics right, from the start will set you up for a good biodiesel future.

Let us know how you are getting along.

cheers
joe

[kamel]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Something I found by accident was that by giving the BD a five minute boiling [110 - 120deg] with about 10% water drops out 90% + of the soap and crap without emulsions, lots of water changes etc.

IE. It's a a vigourous agitation, with no possibility of emulsions.

Lot less messing around and less water usage.

Although no one else seems to have tried it yet...

[tillyfromparadise]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Hello kamel

I suspect the main reason no one has tried it is that it tales a lot of energy to boil the biodiesel

Tilly

[kamel]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Hello kamel

I suspect the main reason no one has tried it is that it tales a lot of energy to boil the biodiesel

Tilly

Yup. That's the only downside that I can see.

On the upside. If you can get access to cheap energy... it saves a lot of hassel.

Also on the upside... for large parts of Oz the amounts of water being used in washing BD is going to be a problem.

More so than finding an energy source. Or so several friends and rellies have claimed when they looked at the standard process.

[Dodge]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

If it works power would not be a problem, you would use a diesel powered generator.
If i get time will give it a try on the weekend, it really bugs me how much water is needed for washing.

It still cannot understand how people in the city use and waste water.
In victoria the yarra valley has stage 1 water restrictions in place and that means people have to use a bucket of water to wash there car and only use a hose to prerinse and a final rinse, what were they doing before, and instead of sweeping a concrete drive they would just hose it down.

[pangit]

Re: bio hard to wash HELP

Don't get me started on water! I find it absolutely staggering that the residents of Toowoomba in Queensland have recently rejected recycling water in a referendum, and are now facing level 5 restrictions. Doh! It shows amazing ignorance and lack of foresight.

Wake up to global warming, the drought is not going to suddenly go away! We live on the driest continent on the planet, and yet as a nation we are incredibly wasteful of water, especially in the cities. Eventually we are going to have to change our habits or things will become very unpleasant. And no, desalination plants are not the answer either. There is so much we can do at a local and individual level with the capture of rainwater, recycling of greywater and more efficient use of it in our homes and businesses etc.

At least the feds have woken up to this reality and appointed a water minister. I hope this guy has a backbone and starts to kick some serious butt at the state and local levels.