Small fleet setup

[speaksgeek Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close speaksgeek]

Hi everyone,

I'm starting to get my head around the possibility of converting our 4 Ford Transit vans to B100. They range from 1999, up to brand new 2006 TDCi.

Major concerns for me are:
-Must be economically competitive.
-Must be convenient to refuel.

So that boils down to supply. Our operation is based in Melbourne CBD, and we don't really have a "depot" as such. So I'm unsure how to go about keeping enough fuel around. I'm about to go through fuel consumption calculations this week, but I we are using roughly 80-90L per van per week, so would need something like 350-400L a week to keep us away from the dino-servos.
While the servo in Boronia seems to be good - it's basically too far to get to as regularly as we require (happily the price seems to be the same as regular dino though)

I haven't yet spoken to FINA in Thomastown.

Does anyone have suggestions for how to go about obtaining and storing 400L+ of B100 for regular pumping?
We have the vans, and the manpower to easily move 200L drums to someone's garage/yard, but would that be legal, or even feasible?

Is there a tanker service in Melbourne for delivery of maybe 1000L? At what point could I hope to obtain any kind of volume discount?

I've been looking for an opportunity to run biodiesel for several years, and I'm optimistic this is it!

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Small fleet setup

Hi everyone,

I'm starting to get my head around the possibility of converting our 4 Ford Transit vans to B100. They range from 1999, up to brand new 2006 TDCi.

No conversion necessary if you are using biodiesel, just be ready to change some filters after some initial use and check lines and seals.

Does anyone have suggestions for how to go about obtaining and storing 400L+ of B100 for regular pumping?
We have the vans, and the manpower to easily move 200L drums to someone's garage/yard, but would that be legal, or even feasible?

200L drums would be OK with a rotary hand drum pump, or possibly a 1000L fuel cube (pallecon), which is quite convenient as it is only 1mx1mx1m. Try Thomastown re deliveries, but also you might want to speak to Chris in this forum, he may be able to sort something out for you.

Any of you from Melbourne have any better suggestions for supply?

[Murphy2000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Murphy2000]

Re: Small fleet setup

Making things convienent and easy is more about process ergonomics than anything else.

If you set up a biodiesel processor, your fuel costs will drop by about 60% to 70%. That can pay for itself pretty darn quickly.

As for a fueling station, while there is nothing hazardous or toxic about biodiesel, you do need to use a steel tank to store it in. A steel tank can be a 200L drum or a regular diesel tank. Any tank that can hold diesel fuel can hold biodiesel.

Dispensing with a hand pump is a major pain in the a$$. Trust me, I know. I make thousands of liters every week.. I don't have to dispense all that myself but a good pump sure makes things nice.

I highly recommend a Fill-Rite pump. I use the Red one.. A bit pricey but well worth the easy and speed. It pumps EXACTLY like a regular gas station pump.

As for procesing systems, there are several.. check out Murphy's Machines for built-it-yourself processor plans AND fully automated processors that do everything for you!

Whatever you decide, never make fuel in a plastic reaction tank. They are a fire hazard.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Small fleet setup

Murphy,
While I agree that you should never heat a plastic tank with anything which can attain temperatures in excess of the working temperature specified for the tank, I disagree about the suitability for use as a reaction vessel.

With oil preheating performed before adding to the plastic processor, the plastic processor would be no more of a fire hazard than a steel tank.

Where the hazard comes in, is where people use high wattage, poorly designed electric heating elements to heat vegetable oil in the plastic reaction vessel. Even with a thermostat, the element temperatue can exceed the safe working temperature of the tank, causing it to distort and leak, potentially exposing the heating element and causing ignition temperature to be reached quickly.

A sitable heating element should not be able to exceed the safe working temperature of the tank and never reach ignition temperature for biodiesel. Even with a high wattage element, this is possible to achieve. It just needs to be designed for the purpose.
Features of such a design may include a large diameter tube enclosing the element, with a heat transfer fluid between, a 2 stage thermostat, which prevents the heat transfer medium exceeding the maximum working temperature and a fail safe temperature fuse which cuts off the heat if the design temperature is exceeded for more than 20 seconds (more or less).

Such a heating element could be safely used with a plastic tank.

Regards,
Tony

[Murphy2000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Murphy2000]

Re: Small fleet setup

Tony,
With respect,

A plastic tank is NOT suitable for a biodiesel reaction vessel.

I have spent almost 20 years as an industrial engineer designing process systems. If I ever designed a biodiesel processor using a plastic tank, not only would my reputation be a joke but if an accident ever happened, I could be charged with negligence. It wouldn't be hard to convince a jury of peers that plastic tanks processing automotive fuel is a bad idea.

Now I realize that these rules don't apply to a home owners property but common sense is just that. Hot oil + Flammable Methanol + Caustic materials + Plastic tanks to hold it all is not a good combination.

Anyone who uses a plastic tank is taking a huge risk and those who sell them give the biodiesel movement a bad name.

The only reason these plastic processors are allowed is because the laws have not caught up.

Have you ever seen a plastic Diesel Fuel tank that is manufactured by a real corporation? No local fire marshal would allow it.. No heating elements there either.

Those who use plastic tanks do so for several reasons:
1. Lack of skill to build a real tank.
2. Lack of profit margin to sell a real tank
3. Convenience

All the ingredients for a catastrophe are there.

And then it happens:

Murphy,
While I agree that you should never heat a plastic tank with anything which can attain temperatures in excess of the working temperature specified for the tank, I disagree about the suitability for use as a reaction vessel.

With oil preheating performed before adding to the plastic processor, the plastic processor would be no more of a fire hazard than a steel tank.

Where the hazard comes in, is where people use high wattage, poorly designed electric heating elements to heat vegetable oil in the plastic reaction vessel. Even with a thermostat, the element temperatue can exceed the safe working temperature of the tank, causing it to distort and leak, potentially exposing the heating element and causing ignition temperature to be reached quickly.

A sitable heating element should not be able to exceed the safe working temperature of the tank and never reach ignition temperature for biodiesel. Even with a high wattage element, this is possible to achieve. It just needs to be designed for the purpose.
Features of such a design may include a large diameter tube enclosing the element, with a heat transfer fluid between, a 2 stage thermostat, which prevents the heat transfer medium exceeding the maximum working temperature and a fail safe temperature fuse which cuts off the heat if the design temperature is exceeded for more than 20 seconds (more or less).

Such a heating element could be safely used with a plastic tank.

Regards,
Tony

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Small fleet setup

Yes, I have seen many plastic fuel tanks for both petrol and diesel. They are accepted by the Australian Design Regulations and there are no cases of them having to be removed from cars which are sold in Australia. I believe that many of these cars are sold in USA, Asia and Europe, with the same tanks fitted. While the plastic used is not the same as the plastic available for biodiesel reactors, you have not specified which plastics you object to, just "plastic", so I presume that you oppose all plastic tanks and reactors.

While you have posted a photo, you do not give any information on the fire cause or the heating configuration for the oil. That fire could have been caused by anything and while they look like biodiesel processors, they could have been holding anything. The photo's file name indicates that the units were fuelmeister reactors, which IIRC have electric heating elements in them. I have dealt with the safety aspects of electric heating in plastic reaction vessels in my last post.

Regards,
Tony

[Murphy2000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Murphy2000]

Re: Small fleet setup

Holding fuel in an automobile tank is a lot different than making biodiesel.

The photo I posted was caused by a malfunction with the pump being used to circulate the liquid. The pump over-heated, caused an electrical problem and apparently generated a spark or something.

Even a melted power wire or other object will catch a plastic processor on fire.

I am a 20 year industrial process engineer. I've designed, operated and trained more people and systems than I can remember.

I am telling you, from an engineering and safety perspective, ANYONE WHO USES A PLASTIC TANK TO REACT BIODIESEL IS BEING A FOOL AND HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Its the first sign when you look at a company selling processing equipment. If their reaction tank is plastic, that company has no idea what they are doing. They've taken a very simple process and tried to build equipment for it using off the shelf parts to make a profit.

Most of these companies don't even make biodiesel and the people working at them probably have never made more than a few batches.

Now, I should qualify all this.. again, from an engineers perspective and a safety perspective. If you set up a piece of junk like a fuel meister in a shed that could burn to the ground without causing any other damage, then that is fine with me.

I know a few people who do this. They built a $500 wood shed far away from their home and they place their biodiesel reactor in there. If it burns down they loose their equipment and $500 worth of wood while looking like a fool in front of their neighbors. (not a high price for a major accident like that)

But most people don't do that.. Most people have a very valuable out-building like a pole barn or 2nd garage.. Many people even put their processors in their garage.. (not the best idea).

I hope you now understand why plastic processors are dangerous..

Anyone who disagrees with me on this point is either to dang stubborn to admit simple logic to themselves or is a seller or pusher of these systems in for a profit and they don't care if you burn your property down.

To be honest, again I am speaking from long experience, it is usually negligence. Most people would not sell you something they think is going to burn your home down. But if you are paying to learn from them, and they are not qualified to teach you, it is a recipe for disaster.

I call it the "fool meister"

Yes, I have seen many plastic fuel tanks for both petrol and diesel. They are accepted by the Australian Design Regulations and there are no cases of them having to be removed from cars which are sold in Australia. I believe that many of these cars are sold in USA, Asia and Europe, with the same tanks fitted. While the plastic used is not the same as the plastic available for biodiesel reactors, you have not specified which plastics you object to, just "plastic", so I presume that you oppose all plastic tanks and reactors.

While you have posted a photo, you do not give any information on the fire cause or the heating configuration for the oil. That fire could have been caused by anything and while they look like biodiesel processors, they could have been holding anything. The photo's file name indicates that the units were fuelmeister reactors, which IIRC have electric heating elements in them. I have dealt with the safety aspects of electric heating in plastic reaction vessels in my last post.

Regards,
Tony

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: Small fleet setup

Hi Geekspeak, To Run your small fleet your obviously busy , so why spend all your time Making BD. (Notwithstanding resourcing WVO!!) One year ago i would have said "thats the only way your gonna get BD", But things , particularly in Melbourne, have come leaps and bounds since I started the MBDC. So if you wanna run a fleet on B100, Just buy in bulk from "The Thomastown Plant". Buy it by the pallecon (1000lts) or by the 44 (205lts), and as mein fuhrer suggested, get yourself a drum pump.
Tom is the production manager of the Thomastown Plant and a graduate of Chemical engineering from a European University, so with your worldly knowledge , youll get on like a plastics fire . Tom is offering to MBDC members B100 for a dollar a litre, (economics are obviously more important to you than the environment or the future of your childrens planet.) So go here to get more info.
AND if you've got alot to offer, why not join the club, and become an active member, and watch things come leaps and bounds over the next couple of years.
If you could get yourself a pallecon and elevate it, I'm sure Tom could help with delivery via a small tanker, then pumped to your own pallecon, (no backbreaking handling).
Cheers Daz.

[speaksgeek Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close speaksgeek]

Re: Small fleet setup

Hi Darren, thanks for that, it's very helpful.

We are very busy, our vans are out there 6 days a week, all day. So as much as we would like to just switch straight over and do whatever it takes for the environmental aspect, it does need to be convenient and economic too.

That price of $1 per litre helps a great deal, that's the sort of thing that can go a long way to making it worthwhile.

I'll keep you updated on progress.

speaksgeek

[Murphy2000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Murphy2000]

Re: Small fleet setup

And co-ops are a great way to go too.

You can learn a lot of really good information.

[zigparacingtadpole Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close zigparacingtadpole]

Re: Small fleet setup

Hi Guys,

Arguments for and against on both side. All sound. One thing that does puzzle me though Murphy is that you seem to be dead against the use of such containers yet you use one yourself. Your pictures to illustrate the setup you sell plans for shows a cone bottom poly tank in the RHS of the pic. One of the other members of this forum even asked about.

As for a fueling station, while there is nothing hazardous or toxic about biodiesel, you do need to use a steel tank to store it in. A steel tank can be a 200L drum or a regular diesel tank. Any tank that can hold diesel fuel can hold biodiesel.

If you cant use one for storage of bio then to my way of thinking you shouldnt be using one as wash tank either.

Speaker of geek (I have to speak jibberish, its a necessity with 2 teenage kids), more power to you for investing the time and effort to incorporate biofuel into your business. Make sure you put a "Powered by Biodiesel" sticker on the back of your vans, it might pick you up some extra business for those looking for a 'green courier'. Best of luck to you in your endeavour!

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Small fleet setup

Guys, we're getting a little off topic here and talking about plastic/vs steel, safety etc, which is fine, but if you want to talk about that, please do it in a new thread.

[Murphy2000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Murphy2000]

Re: Small fleet setup

Hi Guys,

Arguments for and against on both side. All sound. One thing that does puzzle me though Murphy is that you seem to be dead against the use of such containers yet you use one yourself. Your pictures to illustrate the setup you sell plans for shows a cone bottom poly tank in the RHS of the pic. One of the other members of this forum even asked about.
If you cant use one for storage of bio then to my way of thinking you shouldn't be using one as wash tank either.

There is nothing wrong with washing biodiesel in a plastic tank. Washing does not require anything but warm water.

Safety and storage are a mathematical function of time, temperature and circumstances.
I do store biodiesel in plastic poly 55 gallon drums. There is really nothing wrong with this so long as it is a short term application and circumstances are favorable. For instance, I am on a farm and I use biodiesel in a small heater in one of my buildings. The heater only has a 2 gallon tank or something small so I keep a drum of fuel on that side of the property for refueling the heater. (beats walking all the way back to my shop)..

But that's only one or maybe two barrels. I would never store 6 or 10 plastic drums that way in the same area.

Washing biodiesel in a plastic tank is fine. Warm water, wet fuel, no pumps or electrical items around. The safe-o-meter is well into the green on that one.

Spend 15 or 20 years around hundreds of employees and workers and all different kinds of machinery doing different stuff and you get an intimate understanding of why and how accidents happen. "Been there, seen and done that" could be my life motto.

I would never store more than 200 liters in a plastic container. Over that, you should be using steel. Under 200 liters for short temporary periods is fine in plastic.