Landrover TD5

[StephenF10 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close StephenF10]

Re: Landrover TD5

For info, the TD5 is not common rail, but has unit injectors. These are a combined high pressure pump and injector and are driven by a third cam for each cylinder on the camshaft. They run similar pressures to common rail systems and probably have the same issues regarding fuel. I believe that the Holden Jackaroo TD has a similar system.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Landrover TD5

For info, the TD5 is not common rail,.... They run similar pressures to common rail systems and probably have the same issues regarding fuel.

But what ARE the issues regarding Common Rail engines and Biodiesel? There members on this site running LR Freelanders and TD5 Defenders, VW's, Mazdas and Peugeots on Bio and experiencing NO problems with well made fuel, while each of the vehicle manufacturers are avoiding BD use but can offer no technical reason why BD should cause any problems in a Common-Rail engine?

[StephenF10 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close StephenF10]

Re: Landrover TD5

But what ARE the issues regarding Common Rail engines and Biodiesel? There members on this site running LR Freelanders and TD5 Defenders, VW's, Mazdas and Peugeots on Bio and experiencing NO problems with well made fuel, while each of the vehicle manufacturers are avoiding BD use but can offer no technical reason why BD should cause any problems in a Common-Rail engine?

I don't know what the real issues are, just the hearsay ones, and one is that the BD breaks down under the high pressures experienced in this type of injection system, leading to injector failures. Is this true - who knows? We have diesel "experts" warning against using BD, we have unsubstantiated reports of problems supposedly caused by BD, and on the other hand we have many satisfied long-term users of BD. I suspect that BD is fine, but before I decide to use it in an engine where injector problems mean BIG money I need a bit more reassurance.

LR (and other manufacturers) are probably just covering their backsides because they don't want to go to the trouble and expense of testing, and/or don't want to give BD the green light and then be faced with warranty claims caused by the use of dodgy backyard fuel. Unfortunately, the relative ease with which BD can be manufactured works against it being approved by car manufacturers.

Btw, I have been using SAFF B20 in my 1981 Peugeot 504 for over a year with no problems except a rougher idle.

Stephen.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

Heaps of discussion on common rail here. A quick summary is that biodiesel that has poor oxidation properties (ie does not meet spec) might oxidise more quickly in a common rail environment. The reality of it is that this does not happen in practice. I've personally used B100 in my common rail TD4 engine for over 40,000kms now without issues and there are many others who have done far more without any problems.

You are right that it is more about arse covering than real concerns, I think.

[GeoffS Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close GeoffS]

Re: Landrover TD5

I have been following the discussions on biofuels in the td5 ever since someone told me about the forum after my 2003 td5 stopped on the side of the road. The culprit - biodiesel. I had not intentionally used biodiesel and while waiting for the NRMA found the fine print in the manual saying that LandRover did not recommend biodiesel in the td5. This warning is not in earlier model manuals. The repair bill - $2500 and I got out of it cheap as there was no damage to the injectors. Trying to get why out of people is difficult but from what I was told the problem is biodiesel removing the protective coating from the walls of the supply pump causing it to seize thus cutting off the fuel supply. What the diesel specialast indicated was that biodiesel cleans everything out of the system including parts that should remain, that is the protective tea coloured coating on the metal components, as he explained it. These cleaned out bits were what clogged up the system causing the failure of the pump. That, a few corroded seals that had to be replaced and trucking the vehicle to the nearest LandRover specialist saw me without my vehicle for three weeks and a heafty repair bill thanks to biodiesel. I do not know if it was the biodiesel that caused the problems with the seals or age as I heard through the grape vine that the td5 had a recall put out on it to replace the seals. From what I can piece together a diesel motor would have to be specifically manufactured to cater for the idiosyncracies of biodiesel compared to ordinary diesel before it could be used. From my limited, and "not very happy Jan" experience don't even think about using biodiesel in the td5.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

I'd suggest that you don't be too quick to blame the fuel without further qualifications. Was it real biodiesel that met spec, or some dodgy contaminated mix from somewhere? There are many cases of bad diesel that stops cars and causes large repair bills. Where did you get it from and did you keep your receipt?

I'm a little tired of "experts" who have never personally used real biodiesel and have only seen the results of bad biodiesel lumping them in all in together for an easy and expensive diagnosis.

I have a TD4 which is not really different to a TD5 in all the ways that matter. I have used B100 in it for quite some time. When I first used it, the biodiesel caused the crap in my system to be flushed into my fuel filter, causing it to block and the car to stop.

When I changed the filter, I still had problems because the tank mounted pump that was meant to prime the system was dead. This problem had occurred long before I ever used biodiesel and a proper autopsy of the pump proved that it had actually been dead since the day it was put in the car, but had never caused a problem until I changed the filter, as there had never been air in the lines before (the fuel filter is normally only changed every 100,000kms in this model). The elements in this equation are: a dead priming pump; the blocked filter; the extensive time and labour taken to diagnose and fix the problem. This was exacerbated by the fact that the simple electric pump itself, instead of costing the $150 that non-European pumps cost, Land Rover artificially inflated the price to $1600 with no non-genuine options available. So the result?

After I had replaced the pump, the system worked perfectly on B100. It would not make sense that the pump could have been destroyed by 2 tanks of biodiesel when the replacement pump has since run for 2 years on nothing but pure biodiesel. In fact, a proper autopsy proved that the original pump had been faulty since the day it was installed in the factory.

Now, it would have been very easy to have got a huge repair bill from a mechanic who drained the tank, flushed the system, then swapped parts as a matter of course and blamed biodiesel. It would only make sense, surely? They would certainly not have bothered to have cut the old dead pump apart and tried to find out what had killed it (a destructive process).

Fortunately, I was a little better educated and did not allow this to happen. I could have easily spent $2500 and left with a bad opinion of biodiesel from a mechanic who also had a bad opinion of biodiesel and had this re-enforced by urban myths about solvents removing special chemical coatings. However, I had proved from my own experience that this is not the case (no magical chemical coatings have been removed in my system).

If you could explain why you think a modern diesel engine cannot be used with biodiesel, this would be a good place to list them. I'm sure you'd find lots of happy campers who use biodiesel in modern engines every day without problems who would disagree with you (you'll see 2 at the bottom of my signature). Still debate is healthy.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Landrover TD5

I'm just guessing here, but I guess the "tea colured parts" are actually dinodiesel stained parts that the "diesel specialist" would only see if he ever opens a defunct pump and has made an assumption that this is what a pump "should" look like. After running BD through it, it returns to it's ex factory condition and viola, the BD has removed the "tea coloured coating".

I wonder how many brand new units he has stripped down.

I bet a dollar to a camel that if they properly analysed the crud that was in the filter it would be dinodiesel shellac.

I am with you Robert. Once again we have a deaf mechanic blasting forth, fleecing a customer and misleading another ignorant motorist simply because the mechanic had no other explanation to give and zero understanding about BD.

Geoff, I am not saying you are an ignorant being, just ignorant about biodiesel. You need to be certain beyond redemption before you start telling people not to use a product simply because you had one bad experience. Get the facts. The correct ones.

Biodiesel disolves and dislodges the shellac like deposits left in fuel systems by dinojuice and this lodges in the filiter, blocking the filter. It happens for a few thousand k's depending on the % blend you use so carry a couple of new filters in the vehicle.

B100 made to correct specs will not damage a diesel engine or its moving parts. To the contrary with the current low sulphur, no lubrication dinojuice we are forced to use today. Add just 2% BD to your dinojuice and you will prolong the life of your fuel pump and injectors hugely.

[GeoffS Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close GeoffS]

Re: Landrover TD5

Fellows
Thank you for further information on biodiesel. I would suggest that like most people out there we work on lack of reliable information, conflicting data from “experts” on both sides of the fence and bad experiences. There could be a lot of people out here in the wilderness who would gladly switch to biofuels if there was an easy economical way to do so. At the moment it is quite apparent that vehicle manufacturers do not support it, the powers to be (gov’t) don’t support it, mechanical repairers either don’t support it or are ignorant and fuel suppliers don’t support it because there isn’t a ready supply, you have to search to even find the diesel pump at most garages let alone a biodiesel pump. I was just unlucky to come across the one garage that had something called biodiesel in their diesel pump. I did get the fuel tested to try and see what was in it to cause problems but all that came back was the fuel was contaminated with bidiesel, which I already knew. Thus it also seems that analysts also do not support biofuels if it is regarded as a contaminant. Where you get “B100” I have no idea as the use of biodiesel, at least in my zone of Oz, is relegated to back yard brewers, maybe we should run on beer. Who knows what was in the fuel I got in that fateful event as no one wants to tell. Even if I could brew my own it does not help if I am out an about on the road as I would have to revert to “ordinary” diesel for refuelling because there is no supply. At this stage while we are at the mercy of everyone trying to make a dollar, honest or otherwise, miss information and lack of support for biofuels I still suggest that I and many others have no alternative than to stay right away from biodiesel, at least in the td5, because we just cannot afford the repair costs. You could say that biodiesel was not the problem and that the attitude of everyone else was the real problem. You are probably right but until that changes and there is real unilateral support for everyone to use biofuels the use of biodiesel in my vehicle was the cause of my problem as it is outside the operational and support environment that I have to operate in.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Landrover TD5

Geoff,
There is no need to stay away from biodiesel altogether. The benefits of using BD are worth it even if you use a 2% mix. And there is no reason why, if you brew your own BD or find a local supply, you cannot run B100 and occasionally fillup with dino juice.

Doing it the other way round will cause you the same drama you have just gone through as all the crud in the tank, fuellines and pumps will clog up your filters, and another mechanic will rub his hands with glee and score another $2500 off you, blaming biodiesel.

If you go the BD route, keep a couple extra filters in your car (search this forum for filters) and when you think you are loosing power, change the filter.

Drive safe over easter.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Landrover TD5

I will be blunt, hope no one gets offended but Land Rover Discovery have so many issues of unreliability that if anyone says not to use Biodiesel in it, it is clearly not because of an issue with bio as fuel but the car itself.

Engine, gear box, electrics, so many things go wrong with it that if it was me, I wouldn't add another unknown to it.
Now if you had a 'proper' Land Rover, 1960 or 1970 perhaps that's another thing, go for it.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Landrover TD5

Fellows
Thank you for further information on biodiesel. I would suggest that like most people out there we work on lack of reliable information, conflicting data from “experts” on both sides of the fence and bad experiences. There could be a lot of people out here in the wilderness who would gladly switch to biofuels if there was an easy economical way to do so. At the moment it is quite apparent that vehicle manufacturers do not support it, the powers to be (gov’t) don’t support it, mechanical repairers either don’t support it or are ignorant and fuel suppliers don’t support it because there isn’t a ready supply, you have to search to even find the diesel pump at most garages let alone a biodiesel pump. I was just unlucky to come across the one garage that had something called biodiesel in their diesel pump. I did get the fuel tested to try and see what was in it to cause problems but all that came back was the fuel was contaminated with bidiesel, which I already knew. Thus it also seems that analysts also do not support biofuels if it is regarded as a contaminant. Where you get “B100” I have no idea as the use of biodiesel, at least in my zone of Oz, is relegated to back yard brewers, maybe we should run on beer. Who knows what was in the fuel I got in that fateful event as no one wants to tell. Even if I could brew my own it does not help if I am out an about on the road as I would have to revert to “ordinary” diesel for refuelling because there is no supply. At this stage while we are at the mercy of everyone trying to make a dollar, honest or otherwise, miss information and lack of support for biofuels I still suggest that I and many others have no alternative than to stay right away from biodiesel, at least in the td5, because we just cannot afford the repair costs. You could say that biodiesel was not the problem and that the attitude of everyone else was the real problem. You are probably right but until that changes and there is real unilateral support for everyone to use biofuels the use of biodiesel in my vehicle was the cause of my problem as it is outside the operational and support environment that I have to operate in.

As for the above comments. I couldn't put it better myself.
Absolutely agree, and I don't live in a country town but smack in the middle of Sydney were you could, if your are very unwise, get Biodiesel from a pump. What you are really getting is some unknown stale smelling concoction that will sooner rather then later, stuff up your fuel system.
Of course if the so much tooted Australian Biodiesel association had a smidgen of credibility, they would have a pump at their doors.
May be one day, in the not too distant future, a credible honest manufacturer will start selling Biodiesel in one of the many abandoned petrol station scattered around the Sydney suburbs.
I would certainly drive 10/20k to fill up and take some drums with me.
My alternative of driving to Rutherford, is outside the scope of normal motoring and falls in the realm of fanaticism, something I have fallen for a few times but that cannot be asked to be part of one's everyday life.
PS
You Geoff, on the other side are much closer than I am to them, but that is another story

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

Of course if the so much tooted Australian Biodiesel association had a smidgen of credibility, they would have a pump at their doors.

You mean the Biodiesel Association of Australia? Their registered address is in Bowral, so it might be a bit far to travel. Also, they are an industry representative association, not an industry. Still, it would be nice if there was an easy means for the end consumer to access it.

May be one day, in the not too distant future, a credible honest manufacturer will start selling Biodiesel in one of the many abandoned petrol station scattered around the Sydney suburbs.
I would certainly drive 10/20k to fill up and take some drums with me.

The Biodiesel Station will be doing just that (again) will Marrickville be too far to drive? I hope he opens soon.

But I'm sorry, I'm getting off topic.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Landrover TD5

I would not mind to go to Bowral if they had anything more exiting than their laconic answering machine.
Marrickville reopening is the best news since it started to rain again in Sydney. Uhuu

Do they sell B100 ?

As for Geoff he could easily go to Rutherford... or am I mistaken?

[StephenF10 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close StephenF10]

Re: Landrover TD5

I will be blunt, hope no one gets offended but Land Rover Discovery have so many issues of unreliability that if anyone says not to use Biodiesel in it, it is clearly not because of an issue with bio as fuel but the car itself.

Engine, gear box, electrics, so many things go wrong with it that if it was me, I wouldn't add another unknown to it.
Now if you had a 'proper' Land Rover, 1960 or 1970 perhaps that's another thing, go for it.

Marc, what century are you living in? The early Discovery 1's had problems but that was 10-15 years ago. Since then, and especially since Ford took over, Land Rovers are as reliable as anything else.

Let's not have another boring "my car's better than yours" debate.

Stephen.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Landrover TD5

One has to admire the defenders of the poor and the absent...

Is that the reason they have such a great re-sale value?