Landrover TD5

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Landrover TD5

One has to admire the defenders of the poor and the absent...

Is that the reason they have such a great re-sale value?

And you got your info from where?

The 2006 Disco 3 range has dropped an average of 17% on resale value compared against the Pajero at 22.5% and Patrol at 18.78%

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Landrover TD5

Fellows
Thank you for further information on biodiesel. I would suggest that like most people out there we work on lack of reliable information,.....
Where you get “B100” I have no idea as the use of biodiesel, at least in my zone of Oz, is relegated to back yard brewers, maybe we should run on beer. Who knows what was in the fuel I got in that fateful event as no one wants to tell. Even if I could brew my own it does not help if I am out an about on the road as I would have to revert to “ordinary” diesel for refuelling because there is no supply. At this stage while we are at the mercy of everyone trying to make a dollar, honest or otherwise, miss information and lack of support for biofuels I still suggest that I and many others have no alternative than to stay right away from biodiesel,

If you want reliable information on where to source well made Biodiesel on the Mid-North Coast, or how to buy B100 direct, give Rutherford a call on (02) 4932 9444 or biodies@bigpond.net.au as they supply quite a network of fuel distributors in the northern half of the state. If keeping a list of various suppliers is awkward, stick to Caltex outlets, as they are the largest purchaser (and supporter!) of Rutherford's product, albeit distributed as a B5 blend only.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Landrover TD5

Or you could buy a couple of 200 lt drums, fill them at a reputable supplier (home brew or other) and a transfer pump and then fill your car as required at home, and carry a 10 litre can for emergency use.

[The Gos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close The Gos]

Re: Landrover TD5

Hi guys haven't been on for a long time
Go on Robert get inyo them Landrover B100 disbelievers
I have a TD5 yr 2000, been running on B100 for over 12 months now, with only the usual self inflicted problems, (blocked filter , crap in tank etc).
My vehicle is used every day to tow (thats right to tow) a 1 tonne float and 400kg horse around (every day) and up and down the coast, depending where my daughter competes.
The vehicle runs a K&N sports filter and is fitted with a black box to extend injector timings.
All runs well...

[dawson Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close dawson]

Re: Landrover TD5

I have used biodiesel in a 2001 td5 discovery. Since using I have replaced the fuel pump which caused a severe lack of power and missfire. Also the fuel regulator developed a substantial leak, I have also replaced it.
Prior to using biodiesel I had no problems.
Possibly coincidence but I will not be using biodiesel in the td5 in future.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

Dawson, could you please give us some more information on what the biodiesel was? Did it meet spec? Was it home-made, or commercially produced? My 2001 TD4 has not had any such problems after a long diet of quality biodiesel.
Components failing after 6 years can happen, though often not without due cause. I'd be curious to know more information on the diagnosis.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Landrover TD5

I have used biodiesel in a 2001 td5 discovery. Since using I have replaced the fuel pump which caused a severe lack of power and missfire. Also the fuel regulator developed a substantial leak, I have also replaced it.
Prior to using biodiesel I had no problems.
Possibly coincidence but I will not be using biodiesel in the td5 in future.

How long did you use BD for? Did you check and change all fuel filters? Did you see the fuel pump or did the BD ignorant mechanic just say it was damaged by BD? Was there an internal screen filter that maybe just needed cleaning out?At which point did the fuel regulator develop a leak? Was the leak from an internal seal or from where the pipes join or leave the unit? Was the pipe or internal seal rubber which is the only thing that may be subject to damage by BD? Did you check the clips holding the pipes on?

Don't blame biodiesel for causing damage unless you have a fully supported answer to all questions raised above and by Robert and others on similar topics in this and other forums.

Rubber components are affected by biodiesel. Good quality biodiesel will not "damage" a fuel pump, it will lengthen it's life.

[dawson Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close dawson]

Re: Landrover TD5

Hello

The BD I used was a commercially available brew from a national supplier. I had only consumed around 3 full tank fulls before I could noticeably hear the fuel pump in the tank when ignition was turned on. Shortly afterwards the loss of power and misfire occurred, max speed in 5th was around 90 kph on the flat.
I checked fuses, relays and all pointed to a broken pump in tank. I removed the pump and confirmed it was not operating. I disassembled the pump to some extent and found a reset/trip switch on top of the pump motor. I reset and pump the pump was resubmerged in tank and it ran for about 1 minute then stopped.

Purchased a new pump and sender unit installed and all was well for a few days. Then I noticed diesel around the rear of the vehicle. At first I suspected the connections on fuel pump had not seated correctly but upon further investigation the leak was from the fuel block/regulator.


The leak was from the actual regulator unit cover. Not from the 'O' ring seal but from a small vent hole.

I enquired at LR as to availability of seals to reseal internally the regulator and they informed me the item is a not serviceable part. Upon the removal of the regulator I am sure the small seal that is internal could be replaced. Anyway I have fitted a new fuel block/regulator and all is well again.

I did not blame BD for causing these problems, its a possible coincidence. For me, the small saving I received from the purchase of a commercially available product does not warrant its continued use if this particular engine's internal fuel system components were not manufactured specifically to be used with the product.

I did note with interest that the engine was considerably quieter at highway speeds using BD.

Regards Dawson

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

Dawson, sounds like you had a bit of a Land Rover experience there!

I had a very similar problem with the pump in my tank actually being dead since I bought the car. However, the secondary lifter pump was enough to feed the injector pump sufficiently while the system was primed. It was only when I first ran out of fuel, or had to change the fuel filter that I put air in the lines and the problem became apparent as I was unable to re-prime.

I also had to buy a whole new sender unit (the car had just gone out of warranty) and was shocked at the price ($1600). The pump itself was only a standard OEM (VDO) electric pump that would cost $100 in a local vehicle, but I could not find another to fit the same mounts with the same flow rate.

Biodiesel was not to blame, but it did cause a chain of events that made this pre-existing problem flare up. Since I spent ages frigging around with it all, I too had a few post fix traumas with some leaking hoses, including one that burst off the connector while I was driving causing a severe loss of power and a very wet road. Once I'd found and fixed all the leaks, it's run on B100 quite happily with no dramas.

I'm not saying that my experience was the same as yours, but they do sound similar. I'd also like to stress that I could have easily blamed biodiesel and discontinued its use there and then. However, I was not doing it for cost saving reasons (in fact the biodiesel I was getting then was costing me more than dino diesel). If ever you do go back to using the "good oil", I'm sure you'll not have those same problems again.

Land Rover parts...how many times have I heard from them "not a servicable part"? I hear your pain.

[george130 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close george130]

Re: Landrover TD5

Dawson, sounds like you had a bit of a Land Rover experience there!

I had a very similar problem with the pump in my tank actually being dead since I bought the car. However, the secondary lifter pump was enough to feed the injector pump sufficiently while the system was primed. It was only when I first ran out of fuel, or had to change the fuel filter that I put air in the lines and the problem became apparent as I was unable to re-prime.

I also had to buy a whole new sender unit (the car had just gone out of warranty) and was shocked at the price ($1600). The pump itself was only a standard OEM (VDO) electric pump that would cost $100 in a local vehicle, but I could not find another to fit the same mounts with the same flow rate.

Biodiesel was not to blame, but it did cause a chain of events that made this pre-existing problem flare up. Since I spent ages frigging around with it all, I too had a few post fix traumas with some leaking hoses, including one that burst off the connector while I was driving causing a severe loss of power and a very wet road. Once I'd found and fixed all the leaks, it's run on B100 quite happily with no dramas.

I'm not saying that my experience was the same as yours, but they do sound similar. I'd also like to stress that I could have easily blamed biodiesel and discontinued its use there and then. However, I was not doing it for cost saving reasons (in fact the biodiesel I was getting then was costing me more than dino diesel). If ever you do go back to using the "good oil", I'm sure you'll not have those same problems again.

Land Rover parts...how many times have I heard from them "not a servicable part"? I hear your pain.

OK you have just confirmed the Freeland is different to the TD5.
The TD5 has a monster of a pump in the tank that in the Disco is costs around $1600 and for a Defender can go up to $2000. This is the only pomp in their fuel system. The rest of the pressure is actually built up by the injectors themselves. The TD5 injectors are almost a pump in themselves and are worth $1100 each! Also to get them out you have to strip the head down and you do require the special tool. One of the best Diesel workshops down my way broke their tools trying to remove mine for me.

I havn't tried BD yet and probably won't in my TD5. The only reason is at $5500 just to buy the injectors plus the cost of removal and installation of them plus other seals it would be cheaper to fit a petrol engine on LPG and get it engineered. Any other vehicle and you would be nuts to not use it if it was available.

Dawson your fuel block and pump issue is not BD related. The only repair I know of so far to a fuel block is mine but mine was to part of the housing not the seal inside. A few people have changed the internal seal but are now carrying their old ones as spares and havn't tested them.
Also don't forget that the TD5 fuel filter is $44 and huge. It's not a small thing like most vehicles but it is easier to replace than most.

[kpl3212 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close kpl3212]

Re: Landrover and BioDiesel

Its not surprising, Manufacturer's like Land Rover does not approve the use of Biodiesel in their vehicles as there is still a lack of control on the Biodiesel on the so called market. Much of the Biodiesel being used are either homemade or backyard made. Little is being manufacturered to an international standards which manufacturers of fuels adhere to such as API, SAE or the DIN standards. So Manufacturer's of cars have to be cautious. So the safe bet is to state Biodiesel is not suitable as the warranty implications can be great.

StephenF10 in Adelaide claims he uses SAFF B10, which is actually a 10% blend of a Biodiesel with 90% mineral Diesel, made in the world's 1st commercial size Biodiesel plant in Malaysia ( see Carotino) Carotino's Biodeisel is the 1st commercially successful plant in the world to manufacture the Biodiesel to the Euro 5 Biodiesel specifuication. Carotino owns 50% of SAFF.

I work in the Oil refinery business and understand fuels and oils. There is alot of hear say in the discussions either here or elsewhere, but very little scientific backing. Basically Whether its from mineral oil or from a plant derivative, if they are made to a specification of the vehicle manufacturer, it can be used with little problems.

So if it works, the specs of the fuel is correctly matched to the engine specification requirements. If it does not, than the manufacturer or the blender got it wrong or sometimes substituted it for a cheaper, less quality product. So beware of snake oil sellers when buying Biodiesel. Biodiesel is not as cheap to make as mineral diesel oil so unless the manufacturer has access to Very Cheap feedstock, Biodiesel is actual an expensive fuel, more than mineral diesel. Cheap feedstock comes from such as "Free" (Cheapest form) of throw away cooking oil. In Malaysia they grow so much of the palm oil trees, makes palm oil cheap feedstock. Everywhere else, like USA, uses Soya bean oil as feedstock for their biodiesel, which is very expensive. The reason they are currently competive(to a degree) is because of heavy Federal funding from the US Government. Same in Europe, The Canola Lobby is also very strong and the governments there are subsidising the Biodiesel conversion to make it viable. In Australia, our Government are the only Boys Scouts in the international community that believes in the rheotoric of "Free Trade" and let our farmers and manufacturer's go it alone with out help.

So there you are. Biodiesel is a great way forward, but the challenge has only just begun. I have TD5 but have not run anything other than bowser bought Mineral Diesel. Until one can get Euro 5 Spec at the bowser, I will stay away from Biodiesel. SAFF do not sell in Victoria at this stage. SAFF is a South Australian company.

[fezza Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close fezza]

Re: Landrover TD5

I own a 2002 discovery td5 and have had the same problems as DAWSON. I have owned the vehicle from new and have never taken it off road and it has only done 45,000km. This vehicle has performed perfectly since new until I started using Biodiesel from the largest biodiesel supplier in Perth WA. I asked the attendant at the station in Dianella about the suitability of BD in my car and he stated if the car was manufactured after 2000 it would be fine. Halfway through my third tank of BD (all purchased from the same service station) my fuel pump started squeeling so bad it would send the neighbourhood dogs barking. I took it to the Landrover Dealership (1 of two in Perth) for repair. Diagnosis 1 fuelpump. Recommendation from Landrover mechanic "do not use Biodiesel again". I thought that was that but no sooner had the fuel pump been replaced I had a leak from the bleed hole on the fuel pressure regulator (constant drip).
Same story as DAWSON. Is it a coincidence? SLIPPERY would say yes but I would say no.
I used Biodiesel consciously and would use it again in my next car but not in a TD5.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Landrover TD5

Interesting that the same fault happened twice in the same model of vehicle with 2 different owners. Also interesting is the fact that it happened in WA. I'm guessing that in both cases, the fuel may have come from Gull? Has either of you 2 tried to contact the supplier (Gull petroleum or otherwise)? I have understood Gull sell B20 and I have also heard that it is of the highest quality, but mistakes can happen with any supplier, even mineral diesel ones.

Now, the fault itself: I'm just taking some wild guesses here as I'm a bit in the dark about the TD5, but could it be some contributing factor such as a blocked fuel filter causing extra pressure and problems elsewhere up the line? Could there be a common known fault (but of course not admitted by LR) on all TD5s that the use of biodiesel in the first instance causes to be symptomatic? This is out on a limb, but what if some of the dino-crud that would line the tank and lines from years of use was loosened/cleaned out by the bio and it got stuck in some places, be it the fuel filter, or other small junctions causing issues? Could it be that the extra pressure of the blockage caused the pump to squeal? Perhaps the newer pump didn't squeal after being fitted as it was of a newer and better design since a common fault was found on the old one (this was my experience). Perhaps the leak in the pressure regulator shows that there was a problem somewhere upstream from the pump in the first place and simply swapping the pump was merely the most obvious part of the fault finding process, but not the real fault itself.

I know that when my TD4 stopped dead on about the 3rd tank of bio and I found that simply changing my filter didn't fix it (and after I had to spend serious amounts of money on a new tank pump and sender unit), I was not keen to try biodiesel again. However, after spending loads of time and investigation I discovered that it had not been biodiesel, but a Land Rover problem. Could it be that there is some faulty component, or some common design issue at play here? The only way to properly tell would be if after cleaning/fixing/replacing the parts, you were able to run on bio again, or if using biodiesel would cause exactly the same fault to occur after only 3 tanks.
Of course, that is a risk you would have to be prepared to take, but please also talk to your supplier. I'm sure they would be interested, providing you can get to speak to the right person.

Personally, I would guess that once you have repaired the leak from the pressure regulator, changed the filter and thoroughly cleaned out all elements of the system until the leak stops, then I'd be pretty sure that constant use of bio would not cause the problem again. Of course that is just my guess, but the risk and proof of the real culprit is yours.

The other point to note is that B20 is only 20% biodiesel (if that was what both Dawson and Fezza used). I would be highly surprised if such a low blend cause cause the immediate damage that some others incorrectly attribute to biodiesel (like chemically stripping special coatings off components etc) only after a few fills. There has to be a better answer to this and I would be interested to see this followed through properly and not just "diagnosed" by expensive LR dealers swapping parts and leaving the end user out of pocket.

[algaeoil Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close algaeoil]

Re: Landrover TD5

hi all, i have a landrover discovery 2 a. i bought it about six months ago and it had done 80 000 ks.
i drove it around for about five thou with no problems and went for a long trip up north. i filled her up at a lesser known fuel stop, using petro diesel. now after driving for a hundred or so clicks the car began to miss and lunge every now and then. i put up with it on the way up north for over four hundred ks and on the way back it got worse. it would just come in every now and then but by the time i got home it was doing it every few kilometres.

i did put a tank of biodiesel in it on the way back. a woolies 2 percent blend i believe. now when i dropped the trailer off and started it to haead home and took the first corner and the engine power on the pedal just stopped out of power. it would just idle only. and move in first gear at a about 10 ks and hour.
i turned her off and started it again and it went ok again. next day it did the same thing and so i took it to the local mechanic. he found there were error codes in the computer, i changed the filters faering i had loosened up a lot of deposits and decided to take it back to the dealer which i had purchased a 3 year warranty under as it was still missfiring a lot too.

now my local mechanic said do not use biodeisel or blends in this car "use standard petro deisel from well known suppliers."
at that stage i thought maybe it was the biodiesel doing it.

now it took the dealer workshop a while but they found that the car had a faulty wiring loom coming from the engine head. apparently oil had traveeled up the loom beyond the head seal and into the engine bay area near the battery where it was oozing out and shorting out. hence the erratic jumping and missing and regrabbing etc. an electrical problem or sorts.

they changed out the wirirng loom. apparently this was a fairly common problem in this model and the workshop has had this a few times. now i have no idea if the seal there is prone to failure with biodiesel or what but they now these days manufacturer a better loom with a better seal. the cost of this replacement wouldve been about 1200 odd dollars. lucky for me they just did it under warranty.

so by now i was a bit scared of biodeisel. so i went to another service station. holding the same title as the one id used just prior to going up north. they offered both petro and bio blends and this time i used the petro one. i am definate of that fact.

after about a week the car began to jmissfire exasctly like before. but not so much.
i also had a leaking fuel tank by then too. so the local mechanic put a new o ring in the tank. ( not the same problem as earlier posts).
the missfiring continued intermittantly like maybe once a day doing a 15 k drive. it would do it on the same corner id take just before i got home by now but the first innitial problem with the loom was every five ks or so and sometimes more or less regularly./

i rang landrover and found that they had indeed changed the loom, it had a manufacture date tag. there was no oil comign up this time and the guy in the workshop said he had never had to replace two in the one car he assured me the seal was good on the new looms. but would gladly check it out.

i put up with it for a week. then took it back. somedays it would only miss once. but i wanted it fixed and had considered selling the car altogether.

i was glad on the day i drove it to them to have it falter in a flurry of misses on my way up a big hill on the highway. that way i knew the problem was real and they may find it and rectify it.

problem was they only drove it for five minutes and said they had found nothing wrong so i had a long chat with the workshop guy.. so i asked them to take it for a highway drive. they were pretty good about it and did that but after which they said nothing had gone wrong on a lenghty highway weekend drive.

now they had actually put in a new tank of fuel. the guy said he took an old fuel sample but never told me if it came up bad or what. i imagine it came in fine. i was not using bio deisel by then. but i now feel it was suspect PD.

i took it home and bgan using fuel from a well known ozzy company. and have not had a problem since then.
so at that stage i then i thought maybe it was the bio blends causing the problem.

see in the end i thought i was not using a bio blend until just lately when i looked at the pump and noticed i had indeed been using bio blend even since the problem stopped occuring.

im still using the bio blend right now and havent had a missfire for thousands of kilometres. but i am staying away from the cheaper service station starting with M and ending with O.

now my mechanic told me to stay away from them and stay away from bio blends. BUT ive since been back to see him and advise him that the bio blend has been going fine and that the first time was the wiring loom and the second time was not the bio blend but the petro from the service station he told me to steer clear of. i told him that i went there and used it again because i had figured it was only ever a wiring loom problem so i felt safe to use it after the wiring loom was swapped out..

now clearly the second lot of missfires was not a loom problem.

now if landrover chooses to contunie to choose to tell customers to not use bio blends then landrover shall one day see its sales go down as so many petrol stations sell blends these days it becomes a hassle and a worry when thinking about getting your warranty and looking to fill her up.
if they in deed do use any parts that they know does not suit biodeisel then i feel they should stop using those parts in the future.
if it is the case that some parts do not handle the use of biodiesel it sure would save them time and money in the long run to change those parts.

now im not saying the parts dont tolerate the BD. i know now that i use a 2 percent blend with no problems.

i just secured a supply of chip shop oil and will be making my first batch soon and i will risk using it in this car. if it fails i will fix it and ascertain what went wrong and possibly sell the car and buy a suitable car.
that way we will all find out if it goes with no problems. atleast at two percent it is going fine now. i imagine that the parts should already be having problems and will soon try a blend higher than 2 percent.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Landrover TD5

I reckon it is just an easy way out for the manuf'. If they say no bio then when you have trouble it is up to you to prove that you have not used any bio. Obviously you can't so they are off the hook. They can say the problem must be caused by bio, warranty void, you pay. So if you can't prove that you haven't used bio you might as well use it anyway. Just make sure it is good quality and the only way you can do that is to make your own. Whatever you buy you are trusting someone else and are they worthy of your trust? They are in business to make money and if they make a mistake they will need to minimise the cost of that mistake, perhaps at your expense.
So take responsibility for yourself and your own actions. Make your fuel, to the quality that you choose and bear the consequences.
They say no bio to protect themselves, not to protect you.
Sorry for the rant from someone who doesn't even have a vehicle under warranty and would never own a landrover.