Holden Astra CDTi

[digifish Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close digifish]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Hi Neil,

the reason for the differences between the manual and auto are thus...

1. They are different engines (16 valve DOHC manual vs 8 valve SOHC auto).
2. As you noted the auto vs manual obviously, where-as the Golf DSG is actually a manual too, so it doesn't have the same losses, so what I am saying is with the Golf you are comparing a human shifted manual with a computer shifted manual, not an auto, so this will lessen the differences. The auto Astra is slightly heavier than the manual too.
3. The auto CDTi has a particulate filter the manual doesn't, I am sure this adds some restriction.

My longer term consumption figures are...

Summer: 6.8/100 ~ 90% air-con on (Adelaide)
Winter: 6.2/100 no air-con

Reason for the increased reportage since new is that

1. I have stopped trusing the optomistic onboard computer. I'll have this recallibrated at the next service, can be done according to the dealer so that's why I am keeping accurate fill amount/distance records.
2. I was running the car in and was taking it easy...since then I have become addicted to the acceleration and can't help myself, so the above figures are obtained while driving briskly...'pull your face off' briskly

digifish

[marki Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close marki]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

There is a large hill on the approach to the mountains, I have to turn the AC off to maintain speed in my Hilux, otherwise it drops about 20k by the time you reach the top,

Fat Man

Drops by 20k? Think yourself lucky it goes up the hill at all. My Hilux (2.8D) wouldn't pull 110 kmh into a headwind

[digifish Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close digifish]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Holden has this to say on Bio...

"GM Holden recognises the potential environmental benefit of biodiesel. However, diesel fuel quality is an increasingly important issue as GM Holden enters the passenger diesel market.

Holden's general position is in line with the World-Wide Fuel Charter view that the Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME) are acceptable when blended with conventional diesel fuel up to 5% (v/v) known as "B5".

The recently launched Astra CDTi diesel carries full warranty when properly formulated B5 is used.

At higher levels in diesel fuels (eg. "B20"), or as a pure fuel ("B100"), vehicles will need to be adapted to the fuel and particular care is needed to avoid fuel system component and engine performance problems.

Biodiesel is more prone to oxidation and polymerisation; hence fuel dilution of engine oil is a potential problem. The presence of biodiesel in engine oil could cause thick sludge to occur, consequently the oil will become too thick to pump. Development of special formulation engine oils to minimise the effects of fuel dilution may be required.

At present some level of caution must be exercised. Customers should be aware that usage of biodiesel containing more than 5% FAME may cause serious damage to yourvehicle and may void your New Vehicle Warranty. It is envisaged that current technical problems can be overcome in the future with suitable engine development programs."

At least they explained the technical reasons for the B5 only decision, not just...a DONT!

digifish

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

They say

At higher levels in diesel fuels (eg. "B20"), or as a pure fuel ("B100"), vehicles will need to be adapted to the fuel and particular care is needed to avoid fuel system component and engine performance problems.

Has anyone asked them to detail the adaptations they recommend making to the enigne, to permit B100 use, and to quote on having those adaptations done before delivery?

When they say

At present some level of caution must be exercised. Customers should be aware that usage of biodiesel containing more than 5% FAME may cause serious damage to yourvehicle and may void your New Vehicle Warranty. It is envisaged that current technical problems can be overcome in the future with suitable engine development programs.

Do they mean that only the effects caused by the use of biodiesel will not be covered, or that any failure during the warranty period will not be covered?

Tony

[digifish Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close digifish]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

When they say Do they mean that only the effects caused by the use of biodiesel will not be covered, or that any failure during the warranty period will not be covered?

Tony

Yes I was thinking what modifications would they do?

I will think you will find that they are legally responsible to cover any warranty issue that is unrelated to the engine.

However I am sure they would try to argue that a clutch failure, for example, was somehow related to the bio use

From the letter it would seem to me that they are most concerned about engine oil contamination leading to a failure of the lubrication system and thus engine damage. Seems to me that if you are using bio then something like 5K oil changes may be the remedy.

digifish

[Guest Close David]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Biodiesel is more prone to oxidation and polymerisation; hence fuel dilution of engine oil is a potential problem. The presence of biodiesel in engine oil could cause thick sludge to occur, consequently the oil will become too thick to pump.

I have read WVO is supposed to have the possibility of doing this but can BIO cause or more importantly, is bio KNOWN to cause the same effect in real, practical life?

People I know that have used 100% bio for a couple of years don't seem to have had any problems with this occuoring.

I'm not even sure WVO does do this in practice, I am begining to suspect it is just another of the many " Could Happen" things that I have never seen any first hand reports of HAVING actually happened.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

This is FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) at the very least. I have now driven over 50,000 km on B100 and have done several oil tests in this time and at no stage did any oil test show issues with biodiesel, in fact some things were better for havung used it. Now I would not recommend anything above manufacturers recommended oil change intervals so I fully expect to never see any issues.

The whole response from GM is marketing mumbo jumbo, FUD and crap in most terms. Sorry for the harsh words but they have put this point of view across with no evidence to support it, and until they do I will continue to call it crap. Oh despite running biodiesel you do have to change the fuel filter and oil filter too, incase GM think you don't when using biodiesel.

Matt

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Matt,
What oil tests were performed?

Were tests for polymerisation of biodiesel in the oil included? Unless they were, you cannot tell if there was any effect on the oil.

Next time you have an oil analysis done, ask to have the oil tested for fuel residue, after letting them know that the fuel used is biodiesel and verifying that their tests will indicate this accurately. If the tests return a 0 result, I doubt that they are testing correctly because all diesels have a degree of blow by, and the unburned fuel will be dispersed thru the engine oil.

Biodiesel can polymerise, especially in an oxygen rich place where the biodiesel is splashed constantly when it is hot - like in the crankcase of an engine.

Depending on the amount of 'blow-by' your engine has (I would hope that it is low in such a new car), you may have very little, a moderate amount or a lot of biodiesel in your engine oil.
In your case, the engine is still running in and hopefully by now, the rings are sealing at the best that they can. This will degrade over the life of the engine, until the engine is eventually overhauled. Hopefully this will be many thousands of Km in the future.

Changing engine oil at half of the manufacturers recommended mileage is cheap insurance against polymerisation affecting the oils ability to lubricate the engine properly. Like my dad used to say, "Oil is cheaper than metal."

[Guest Close David]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

After reading Digifish's reply from Holden regarding BioDiesel, My curosity was tweaked and I wrote to them asking about the modifications that would be needed to run the vehicle on bio concerntrations greater than b5, prefrably B100, what these modifications would cost and if they were a factory order or could be done Post purchase? I also enquired as to wether more regular fuel changes would fix the oil problem.

I made it very clear I was concerned about the enviroment and my decision as to what car "my company" would be looking at to replace the small fleet of reps vehicles we had which was soon due.
I thought dangling the carrot of selling multiple vehicles may entice some sort of detailed reply.

I was wrong.
This was the response I recieved back:

"Dear

Thank you for your email.

GM Holden recognises the potential environmental benefit of biodiesel. However,
diesel fuel quality is an increasingly important issue as GM Holden enters the
passenger diesel market.

Holden’s general position is in line with the World-Wide Fuel Charter view that the
Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME) are acceptable when blended with conventional
diesel fuel up to 5% (v/v) known as "B5".

The recently launched Astra CDTi diesel carries full warranty when properly
formulated B5 is used. Please note that Isuzu-sourced vehicles, such as the Holden
Rodeo, are still being evaluated for B5 suitability and are not currently covered by the
Holden New Vehicle Warranty.

At higher levels in diesel fuels (eg. "B20"), or as a pure fuel ("B100"), vehicles will
need to be adapted to the fuel and particular care is needed to avoid fuel system
component and engine performance problems. Biodiesel is more prone to oxidation
and polymerisation; hence fuel dilution of engine oil is a potential problem. The
presence of biodiesel in engine oil could cause thick sludge to occur, consequently
the oil will become too thick to pump. Development of special formulation engine oils
to minimise the effects of fuel dilution may be required.

At present some level of caution must be exercised. Customers should be aware that
usage of biodiesel containing more than 5% FAME may cause serious damage to your
vehicle and may void your New Vehicle Warranty. It is envisaged that current technical
problems can be overcome in the future with suitable engine development programs.

We hope this information has been of assistance to your enquiry.

Kind regards,

Amy Wrigley
Holden Customer Assistance "

Hmmm, Sounds familliar, Where have I heard that before??

I am particularly impressed with the Dear ______ Touch in which the respondent has been so non plussed as to not even bother typing the 5 letters of my name into the cut and paste response.

Obviously no one at Holden has a goddam clue about bio diesel and could be bothered getting off their arse to find out. Perhaps it's a good job i'm not looking for a new car at the moment because even though every car I have bought after my first bomb has been a Holden, this lapsadasical reply would pretty much put me off bothering to buy a Diesel
Astra off them.

Just to stir the pot I may respond and ask not to be fobbed off and is it possible to get a reply to my actual questions than just a cut and paste answer that is convienent to them but useless and pretty much insulting to me.

[digifish Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close digifish]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

After reading Digifish's reply from Holden regarding BioDiesel, My curosity was tweaked and I wrote to them asking about the modifications that would be needed to run the vehicle on bio concerntrations greater than b5...

Just to stir the pot I may respond and ask not to be fobbed off and is it possible to get a reply to my actual questions than just a cut and paste answer that is convienent to them but useless and pretty much insulting to me.

Ha! You got some new information...

"Please note that Isuzu-sourced vehicles, such as the Holden Rodeo, are still being evaluated for B5 suitability and are not currently covered by the Holden New Vehicle Warranty."



I have found asking Holden customer assistance for any details or to answer your technical question quickly escalates into sadness

I am 100% sure the CDTi Astra manual (with no particulate filter) will need no modifications and run happily on 100% bio that meets the standards.

digifish

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Tony, a full test was done but no specific test was done for biodiesel in the fuel but I will ask next time directly about this as you suggest. There was a dilution test performed but I would hazard a guess this would relate to mineral fuels although I do remember seeing it was > 0% so perhaps it did measure foriegn hydrocarbons? A gc would show this out but at $28 per test I don't think the will be testing this way, a question will solve that riddle.

I have looked at blowby on the Toyota but not yet on the Peugeot 307 as I am only getting my head around maintaining it, not much practical yet although I did get its oil checked once. Must do both again and get my brain into gear, its far too busy here at home at the moment, my head is spinning. No pressure was felt out of the oil filler, would this be a fair indication? I believe it is.

Wear particles of most metals were same or less that found when running minerla fuel so that speaks for itself.

It loves biodiesel and the pug is running fine too, nothing a clean fuel filter will fix. I strongly believe given my expereince now with nearly 50,000 on both vehicles that I can say that GM are spoeking rubbish and well made B100 will run the Astra fine.

Matt

Matt,
What oil tests were performed?

Were tests for polymerisation of biodiesel in the oil included? Unless they were, you cannot tell if there was any effect on the oil.

Next time you have an oil analysis done, ask to have the oil tested for fuel residue, after letting them know that the fuel used is biodiesel and verifying that their tests will indicate this accurately. If the tests return a 0 result, I doubt that they are testing correctly because all diesels have a degree of blow by, and the unburned fuel will be dispersed thru the engine oil.

Biodiesel can polymerise, especially in an oxygen rich place where the biodiesel is splashed constantly when it is hot - like in the crankcase of an engine.

Depending on the amount of 'blow-by' your engine has (I would hope that it is low in such a new car), you may have very little, a moderate amount or a lot of biodiesel in your engine oil.
In your case, the engine is still running in and hopefully by now, the rings are sealing at the best that they can. This will degrade over the life of the engine, until the engine is eventually overhauled. Hopefully this will be many thousands of Km in the future.

Changing engine oil at half of the manufacturers recommended mileage is cheap insurance against polymerisation affecting the oils ability to lubricate the engine properly. Like my dad used to say, "Oil is cheaper than metal."

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Holden Astra CDTi

Biodiesel is more prone to oxidation and polymerisation; hence fuel dilution of engine oil is a potential problem. The presence of biodiesel in engine oil could cause thick sludge to occur, consequently the oil will become too thick to pump. Development of special formulation engine oils to minimise the effects of fuel dilution may be required.

I particuarly like this little bit. Typical Engineer type answer.

A new engine and dumping heaps of unburnt fuel into the oil
Now I can see that this could happen in a petrol engine with blowby on each and every compression stroke, but for a diesel to get anything but the tinyest amounts of fuel into the oil must make one wonder what they are thinking.
Then just how much polymerised bio would it take to turn your sump into the suggested sludge that the oil pump couldn't pump it?

Surly with the recomended oil change interval and an engine in good condition this would not happen.