problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

JSB. What was the wmo blend made from? I mean what oil types i.e. gear oil, hydraulic oil, engine oils etc. Was any oil from diesel engine sump? Did you blend with your normal 20% ULP?

Also the previous IP failures: Has it been determined which actual piece or part gave up? Can the failure/s be described as seizure, blockage, breakage, wear, corosion, etc? Any pics would be cool.

Am just trying to understand better. As you said this game is highly experimental so the thought is, we can benefit by helping each other.

tbird650, in the last experiment I made up a 20-gallon (80L) blend of 80%WMO from a motorcycle shop with 20% petrol. I pumped out my main 30-gallon (120L) fuel tank, which meant there was 3 gallons left in the tank. I had settled the blend for at least a few days, and had extracted about 10% from the bottom of the tank, which was thick, black sludge. I then filtered the remainder through a 1-micron bag filter into that fuel tank. The engine ran fine for 3 days. On the fourth day I noticed significant power loss and smoke. I tried adding solvents (lacquer thinner and MEK) to my fuel blend, and replaced my fuel filters. There was marginal improvement. That Sunday I pulled my injectors, which were only a few months old. This is what they looked like:

All previous injector failures looked similar in appearance.

In all cases I also found a dark amber sludge that had accumulated to my fuel lines. Here is a pic:


The screen inside the injector pump typically looks like this:


This is what the sludge that I removed from the fuel tank a few years ago looked like:


On close examination of the sludge that is the product of blending WMO with WVO is it is at least two different components. There is a dark solid that I believe is free carbon, which globs together at the bottom of the tank. then there is a thick, sticky, dark liquid, which I believe is lacquer. They join together to make a rubber-like substance at the bottom of the tank. And, they are not soluble in petroleum distillates, but they are soluble in lacquer thinner or MEK.

The precipitate is about 10% of the blend. My most recent sollution was to pump out the tank, then add 4 gallons of petrol, then pump it out again, then add 3 gallons of lacquer thinner, circulate that through the fuel lines, then pump it out. In past experience that method proved to be successful, so I assume it has been successful.

However, replacing the injectors alone has only improved performance, but not brought the engine back to full performance. I plan to pull the injector pump when I have a replacement handy. At that time I will inspect the injector screen. If it is plugged I will clean it and re-install it. If the screen is not significantly blocked, then I will replace the injector pump with a pull from a wreck.

Past replaced pumps had failed for unspecified reasons. I have yet to learn how to fully dismantle the pump, but I am looking for a service manual and rebuild kit. I have two previous IPs that I can rebuild when I have parts and manual.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

OK, the forum is not accepting my images.

[tbird650 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tbird650]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

JSB. Thanks for the details. I'd love to see these images at some point. Perhaps they are too large? Possibly upload as attachments via "manage attachments"...there is size limitations there though. Otherwise what about Skydrive (25 GB of free online storage so it says)

Have you found that lacquer thinner and MEK are better than other solvents in cleaning substances commonly found in our fuel systems?

I wiki'd : lacquer thinner, a mixture of several solvents typically containing butyl acetate and xylene or toluene

Once, way back when I was using CAV296 paper filtration, I found that the paper of the element had started to pull away from its' metal end caps. I thought maybe this was something do with thinners/solvent additives. Indeed the Tech at Ryco advised me not to use too high% of methanol as the glue wasn't resistant enough. Something to be cautious about anyway.

The black fallout in your tank could be carbon from the combustion process of the engine it came from. No doubt some of the oil was motor oil?

Re the IP's. Often they require special tooling to dismantle. Like a 3sided nut for example. There's a real good step by step with pics for the Bosch VE rotary type IP here . Hopefully you can find something similar for your Stanadyne. If I get IP failure, I'll probably fit a 2nd hand one then look at repairing the original, and shelve it. There quite complicated but definitely start with a clear head!

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

Sorry, Tbird, that my photos are not showing up here, they are all low res 72 dpi 4x5s. I have posted these same photos on other biofuels forums and I have posted them to this forum, so I am not sure why they are not now posting here.

I generally use petrol as a solvent for most of my needs around my alternative fuels projects, because it is cheap, effective and I can just blend the waste right back into my waste oils to make fuel. However, lacquer thinner and MEK are the only solvents I have found so far that will dissolve the lacquers that come from blending vegetable oils with motor oils. I have tried xylene or toluene, but they will not do much for these lacquers.

Yes, I switched from cartridge filters to bag filters when I found that the seals at the ends of the cartridge filters were swelling and buckling due to the alcohol content in petrol here in the USA. The cartridge filters were failing when I was back-flushing them, not when I was filtering blends.

Yes, I believe it is reasonable to consider that the sources of the black precipitate in my fuel is coming from free carbon that is coming from WMO in my blends.

I have been looking for a clear step-by-step disassembly instructions of the standyne IP, but have only found a very complicated exploded diagram. Since I can pick used ones up at the junkyards here for $35, I will just pick up another one and keep the old ones for rebuilding when I can find a source of a seals kit and repair manual.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

Hi Jeffrey,
I just found this thread. I can not imagine how I missed it.
Your problem with repeated failure of your IP is that Stanadyne pumps are unsuited to the low quality fuel you are using.

This is from my SVO guru HCII in the UK'

Stanadyne DB Radial Plunger Distributor Pump

This American pump is not that common in the UK, usually found only on the "Japanese Dodge" engine found in some older Renault trucks and minibuses, being made under Licence by Diesel Kiki It follows the same operating principle as the Lucas CAV
This pump can suffer the same fate as the Lucas CAV, as its construction of the distributor rotor and hydraulic head are very similar, These pumps should only be used on Vegetable oils where the pump and fuel have been heated to full normal running temperature, if no internal modifications to improve rotor lubrication have been carried out.

Hope that helps

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

Those who bother to read the last few posts on this thread from 8th August 2011, 03:32 PM and before will find that I had figured out that the problem with my DB2 iPs was blending WMO on top of WVO blends, which produces a dramatic precipitation event of lacquer and free carbon. So, the problems that I was having had nothing to do with blending petrol with waste oils it was finally realizing that WMO and WVO produce a dramatic precipitation event of lacquer and free carbon. Recognizing that I have used it to my advantage by blending WMO with WVO at 50%; in an external settling tank, then blending petrol at 20% with the total solution, then allowing 3 days to pass for settling, then draining the thick and/or black component off the bottom, until a translucent blend is arrived at, then filtering down to 1-micron solved the problem for my engine, which has yet to show coking problems on this translucent blend, so it is therefore most probably will work on all other diesel engines.

[peter1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close peter1]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

OK, I'm confused!

First you say:

So, the problems that I was having had nothing to do with blending petrol with waste oils it was finally realizing that WMO and WVO produce a dramatic precipitation event of lacquer and free carbon.

Then you say:

Recognizing that I have used it to my advantage by blending WMO with WVO at 50% in an external settling tank, then blending petrol at 20% with the total solution

,

So you are saying the problem is nothing to do with blending petrol with waste oils but then you say you are blending WMO and WVO with petrol.
I have always known WVO to mean WASTE vegetable oil and WMO as WASTE motor oil.
So it seems to me you are still blending with the exact same WASTE oils that you said in the sentence before was the cause of your problems.
It seems the only difference in what you are using is calling them by name and by an acronym.

As far as WMO and WVO blending go, I thought the problems with that was common knowledge from a long time back. If you had a decent fuel preparation system and onboard filters, i still don't see what physical mechanism would have caused the IP damage?

As a matter of interest, how many pumps have you been through in total?
Injector pumps here even used can be easily worth as much as the car many people are running veg fuels in.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

OK, I'm confused! So you are saying the problem is nothing to do with blending petrol with waste oils but then you say you are blending WMO and WVO with petrol.
I have always known WVO to mean WASTE vegetable oil and WMO as WASTE motor oil.
So it seems to me you are still blending with the exact same WASTE oils that you said in the sentence before was the cause of your problems.
It seems the only difference in what you are using is calling them by name and by an acronym.

Not really. What I am doing is using the incompatibility between WVO and WMO as a mechanism of differential solubility. This means I am forcing the precipitation of dissolved free carbon and lacquer out of solution with WMO by blending WVO with my WMO in a settling tank, because free-carbon and lacquer are not as soluble in WVO as they are in WMO, then I drain off the sludge, and I find no new precipitates are formed.

As far as WMO and WVO blending go, I thought the problems with that was common knowledge from a long time back.

I wish it was known to me a long time ago. I have been reading on alternative diesel forums for 7 years. From what I have read on those forums using WMO as a diesel fuel is relatively new, and realizing that WMO and WVO were incompatible arrived on the sceen about a year ago, and I was one of the first to report it.

If you had a decent fuel preparation system and onboard filters, i still don't see what physical mechanism would have caused the IP damage?

Actually, I have found that the precipitates formed from blending WMO with WVO can be at least 10% of the total blend. I have a 120L fuel tank, so that is 12L of sticky precipitates. My fuel filters are bigger than stock, but they can only trap about 2L of sludge.

As a matter of interest, how many pumps have you been through in total?
Injector pumps here even used can be easily worth as much as the car many people are running veg fuels in.

I have replaced my IPs about 3 or 4 times, I can pull an IP from a wreck at the junkyard for $45US, which is cheap. I now have 3 on hand. However, it was really the injectors all along that failed first, and sometimes took the IP with them. I have found I can just clean my injectors and put them back on for adequate running.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

%Hi Jeffrey,

Those who bother to read the last few posts on this thread from 8th August 2011, 03:32 PM and before will find that I had figured out that the problem with my DB2 iPs was blending WMO on top of WVO blends,

You may not remember, but in the first post starting this thread you said "My method is blending gasoline with vegetable oil at 20% gasoline/80% Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO).
I find the STANADYNE DB2 Injection Pumps are failing after about 9 months on the above fuel blend."
You make no mention of WMO in the mix.

However, it was really the injectors all along that failed first, and sometimes took the IP with them.

How does a clogged injector "take an IP with it"?

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

%Hi Jeffrey,You may not remember, but in the first post starting this thread you said "My method is blending gasoline with vegetable oil at 20% gasoline/80% Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO).
I find the STANADYNE DB2 Injection Pumps are failing after about 9 months on the above fuel blend."
You make no mention of WMO in the mix.

MOD EDIT: removed personal accusation


However, to answer your question, I reasoned 5 years ago that if blending petrol with WVO worked so well as diesel fuel, then the same process would work with any waste oil. It just so happened that I had access to a partial drum of WMO that was rusted out and starting to leak, where I was first working on my blending experiments, so I decided that it would be a good thing for the riparian area that I was in for me to pump out that barrel and turn what I could of it into fuel. It was only about 20L of WMO blended into about 60L of WVO, so the precipitates that formed in my fuel tank did not take my engine all right away, but by the end of the summer the engine would not longer run. So, I did not realize at the time that my engine failure was related to WMO blending.

I replaced the injector pump, and got the engine running, but the engine failed again a few months later. I sent the pump off for rebuild, but my rebuilder said he wouldn't do it if I did not send him the injectors, because he said, "What ever crap you have in the injector pump is in your injectors as well." I did not realize until a year later that the real problem was coked injectors over-stressed the injector pump, so I should have all along just replaced, or rebuilt, my injectors.

How does a clogged injector "take an IP with it"?

On my engine if I try to run it with coked injectors for too long it can damage the IP. It is most probably due to back pressure.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

%Hi Jeffrey,

It is too bad that you are not a blender, because your constant nit-picking of every one of my posts just looks like a pathetic attempt to hijack the blending forum, and makes you look like a sock-puppet.

In truth, on some forums I am known as Tilly instead of Tillyfromparadise. I apologise if you found that confusing. I thought most people would be able to make the connection.

However, to answer your question, I reasoned 5 years ago that if blending petrol with WVO worked so well as diesel fuel, then the same process would work with any waste oil.

I have noticed that you often seem to make these assumptions based on a total lack of rational thought or scientific experimentation.

It just so happened that I had access to a partial drum of WMO that was rusted out and starting to leak, where I was first working on my blending experiments, so I decided that it would be a good thing for the riparian area that I was in for me to pump out that barrel and turn what I could of it into fuel. It was only about 20L of WMO blended into about 60L of WVO, so the precipitates that formed in my fuel tank did not take my engine all right away, but by the end of the summer the engine would not longer run. So, I did not realize at the time that my engine failure was related to WMO blending.

Unbelieveable! So it was that initial 20L of WMO you put in your van all those years ago that has caused the failure of 4 or 5 IP's in the last 5 years.
That has to be the most compelling reason I have ever read to warn everyone about the dangers of using WMO as a motor fuel.
Your demonstration of how catastrophic it is to use WMO as a fuel in diesel engines is a shining example of your selfless dedication to helping the alternative diesel fuel Fraternity at any cost.
God Bless You Jeffrey S. Brooks!
Keep up the good work.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

%Hi Jeffrey,

In truth, on some forums I am known as Tilly instead of Tillyfromparadise. I apologise if you found that confusing. I thought most people would be able to make the connection.



I have noticed that you often seem to make these assumptions based on a total lack of rational thought or scientific experimentation.



Unbelieveable! So it was that initial 20L of WMO you put in your van all those years ago that has caused the failure of 4 or 5 IP's in the last 5 years.
That has to be the most compelling reason I have ever read to warn everyone about the dangers of using WMO as a motor fuel.
Your demonstration of how catastrophic it is to use WMO as a fuel in diesel engines is a shining example of your selfless dedication to helping the alternative diesel fuel Fraternity at any cost.
God Bless You Jeffrey S. Brooks!
Keep up the good work.

Thank-you, Tilly, for proving that you are just a sockpuppet trying to hijack the blending forum. It is too bad that the forum mod allows you to do that, but then you are just his sockpupppet.

[peter1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close peter1]

Re: problem with blends on a 6.2L/6.5L diesel engine

Thank-you, Tilly, for proving that you are just a sockpuppet trying to hijack the blending forum. It is too bad that the forum mod allows you to do that, but then you are just his sockpupppet.

THIS^^^^ is exactly why you have been banned from nearly every other veg forum jeff.

It has nothing to do with hidden agendas or anything else you accuse them of, it's all to do with this very attitude that takes a downhill spiral as time goes on and results in you being kicked off the forums.