Blending gasoline with biodiesel

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

First up I am not a blender, but I follow the blend forum, as it brings up a lot of gems of info with regard to use of bio, especially in cold climates.

But I gotta say that regardless of who is posting (with regards to experiments), I personally would appreciate if people took a little more trouble to confine themselves to scientific principles.

I.e. - is it repeatable?, have I removed all known variables? have I conducted blind tests to confirm the reaction I am seeing is actually the result of the subject experiment?

Please, if you want to post your efforts as scientific observations, conduct them scientifically.

Science is just a logical pathway. stick to logic.

Posting info that is blatantly wrong just hurts this forum. There are so many people here that try to help productively, honestly and in good faith, that I would hate to see it watered down through observations made from lazy experiments.

I'll go back to the Bio section now

[BushBill Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BushBill]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Tilly,

I was just trying to suggest to Jeffrey, in a subtle way, that perhaps he could try the experiment again as others of us have different results to his.

Bill

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Bill

Tilly,

I was just trying to suggest to Jeffrey, in a subtle way, that ...
Bill

I thought I was being subtle.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,
Are you now saying that what you said on the video was not correct about the liquid being thinner at the top of the glass tube because you had just poured the petrol on top of it and you had actually poured the petrol into the tube two days earlier and it had taken two days for the precipitate to develope in the glass tube and start falling out?
In the video you said that you had seen the precipitate start to form right away but were only collecting it two days later.

No, you do not seem to get that the video was shot in several sequences over a 2 to 3 day period. So, there were different phenomena observed on different days, then edited together.

There are a lot of people who mix petrol and kerosene and diesel into their biodiesel over the winter and no one has ever reported what you have shown.
Considering you had not mixed the petrol into the biodiesel when you started seeing precipitate falling I think my 1 litre test batches are more meaningful than your test.

This is false, The petrol had been added to the biodiesel before I started shooting the sequence on this subject. However, it is worth noting that a lot of people who mix petrol and kerosene and diesel into their biodiesel over the winter and no one has ever reported precipitates. However, that does not mean that those precipitates are not forming. After all many people running various alternative diesel fuels frequently report plugged fuel filters. This common experience should suggest that perhaps those precipitates are forming, but everyone is misinterpreting the failed fuel filter.

I suggest you clean out your equipment and repeat your test.

No, I already stated that I had back-flushed my equipment with 14L of petrol. So, I have recommended that others repeat the experiment, and report their findings.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

First up I am not a blender, but I follow the blend forum, as it brings up a lot of gems of info with regard to use of bio, especially in cold climates.

But I gotta say that regardless of who is posting (with regards to experiments), I personally would appreciate if people took a little more trouble to confine themselves to scientific principles.

I.e. - is it repeatable?, have I removed all known variables? have I conducted blind tests to confirm the reaction I am seeing is actually the result of the subject experiment?

Please, if you want to post your efforts as scientific observations, conduct them scientifically.

Science is just a logical pathway. stick to logic.

Posting info that is blatantly wrong just hurts this forum. There are so many people here that try to help productively, honestly and in good faith, that I would hate to see it watered down through observations made from lazy experiments.

I'll go back to the Bio section now

If you are referring to me "Posting info that is blatantly wrong," then I am sorry, I have a 40-year technical career, 3 degrees from the University of Arizona, and I have done research for years, including a stint of petroleum research at Chevron Research. So, I know how to setup an experiment, with a well thought out research design,<text removed by moderator>

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

Originally posted by JeffreyNo, you do not seem to get that the video was shot in several sequences over a 2 to 3 day period. So, there were different phenomena observed on different days, then edited together.

I understand that. I assume the video is in chronological order.

This is false, The petrol had been added to the biodiesel before I started shooting the sequence on this subject.

I was probably being too subtle there. Yes, you had added the petrol to the biodiesel, but no, as you clearly pointed out in the video, the petrol was still on the top, there had not been any meaningful mixed of the petrol and biodiesel after you had shown all that precipitate falling through the biodiesel

No, I already stated that I had back-flushed my equipment with 14L of petrol. So, I have recommended that others repeat the experiment, and report their findings.

And did you then use the dirty petrol you had from flushing out your equipment to add to the biodiesel. That is certainly what it looks like to me.

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

I understand that. I assume the video is in chronological order.

Yes, you had added the petrol to the biodiesel, but no, as you clearly pointed out in the video, the petrol was still on the top, there had not been any meaningful mixed of the petrol and biodiesel after you had shown all that precipitate falling through the biodiesel

Well, the thing to get that seems to be too subtle for you is the sight-glass. A sight-glass is a long narrow tube that reflects the volume in the tank. It can help give a view into the contents as well, but it resists blending because of its length. Also, the way my system is plumbed components added in sequence are going to enter the sight-glass in sequence and remain in sequence, a small amount of which will be trapped, and thus prevent blending; however, the mass of the fuel still goes into the tank where blending occurs while driving. This explains why there was a small amount of petrol remaining on top of the solution in my sight-glass. I will be processing another blend into my fuel tank today, and after that I will be re-plumbing my sight-glass so that I can valve it off thus preventing concentrations of solvent lingering in the sight-glass. This has become a problem because petrol here in the USA has a high percentage of alcohol in it, which cause the vinyl tube that I am using as a sight-glass to swell, and I am also experimenting with acetone and other solvents, which can weaken the vinyl hose that I use as a sight-glass.

And did you then use the dirty petrol you had from flushing out your equipment to add to the biodiesel. That is certainly what it looks like to me.

Of course I did NOT use dirty petrol that I had flushed out my equipment with to add to the biodiesel. <Text removed by moderator>

<Text removed by moderator> why don't you just process a larger batch of biodiesel (80L) and add petrol on top of it at 10% and give it at least 2 days to settle in a cone shaped settling tank? At least that way, you will repeat my experiment. <Text removed by moderator>

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,

If you are referring to me "Posting info that is blatantly wrong," then I am sorry, I have a 40-year technical career, 3 degrees from the University of Arizona, and I have done research for years, including a stint of petroleum research at Chevron Research.

<Text removed by moderator>

Well, the thing to that seems to subtle for you is the sight-glass. A sight-glass is a long narrow tube that reflects the volume in the tank. It can help give a view into the contents as well, but it resists blending because of its length.

I see. We were actually only seeing the contents of the sight tube and the precipitate in the video was just the crap that had collected in the sight tube over time because it was not cleaned out during the petrol flush.

<Text removed by moderator> why don't you just process a larger batch of biodiesel (80L) and add petrol on top of it at 10% and give it at least 2 days to settle in a cone shaped settling tank? At least that way, you will repeat my experiment. <Text removed by moderator>

The main reason is that I never mix petrol and biodiesel.
I have a better idea, why do you not <Text removed by moderator> design a test that actually tests something other than the amount of dirt that has collected in your sight tube.

[BushBill Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BushBill]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,

As I said before, I add petrol to biodiesel, up to about 5% for winter use. I also add about 12% petro-diesel plus a little pure-gum terps .1% and some acetone .1%. I mix this all together in my processor for proper mixing, then filter through a 1 micron bag filter and into the 160 litre storage container.

Mt storage container acts as a settling tank, the fuel sits there until used and I take the fuel from about 250 mm from the bottom. I had reason to use all the fuel a few months ago, so I was able to see what was in the bottom of the container. There was nothing but fuel. No drop out of any kind. This container had over 1500 litres of fuel go through it over the previous six months.

I have seen other peoples biodiesel that looks poor (cloudy), that I would not use in my own vehicles, and they seem to have problems of a sludgy dropout, and lots of blocked filters. The sludgy stuff appears to be some kind of glyc and water combination. Nowhere have I seen the type of particulate dropout that you seem to have, except for some rust from dirty wet containers, not from the mix of fuel.

Bill

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,

After reading The last couple of posts it seems by your own admission you are basing your observation (or at least visible results) on a element of your experiment that does not (once again by your own admission) reflect the true nature of the results.

I would have thought that 40 years of acedemia would have prevented such an occurance. Maybe 40 years of brewing bio or using alternative fuels would have held you in better stead.

I am not trying to be personal here at all. Forgive me if it appears that way. If you want to improve your credibilty, quoting irrelevant experience wont do it. All that needs to happen is to clean up the experiment a little. Forget the sight glass, its useless. Why not install 3 taps on the side if the vessel at different heights , low, mid and high. After the mix, simply tap off a sample in a CLEAN glass jar for each? That should give you a good sample base. I am sure there are other better ways, but that seems like a reasonable place to start.

But then again thats only the thoughts of an uneducated fool. I better go and read a book about Hiawatha and minnehaha

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,

As I said before, I add petrol to biodiesel, up to about 5% for winter use. I also add about 12% petro-diesel plus a little pure-gum terps .1% and some acetone .1%. I mix this all together in my processor for proper mixing, then filter through a 1 micron bag filter and into the 160 litre storage container.

Mt storage container acts as a settling tank, the fuel sits there until used and I take the fuel from about 250 mm from the bottom. I had reason to use all the fuel a few months ago, so I was able to see what was in the bottom of the container. There was nothing but fuel. No drop out of any kind. This container had over 1500 litres of fuel go through it over the previous six months.

I have seen other peoples biodiesel that looks poor (cloudy), that I would not use in my own vehicles, and they seem to have problems of a sludgy dropout, and lots of blocked filters. The sludgy stuff appears to be some kind of glyc and water combination. Nowhere have I seen the type of particulate dropout that you seem to have, except for some rust from dirty wet containers, not from the mix of fuel.

Bill

Thanks, Bill, this is the kind of response that I was hoping for, instead of the character assassination, that I received. So, apparently you are making a good biodiesel product; and arguably, the biodiesel I bought at a fuel station in Tucson, AZ, USA, might very well have been very poor biodiesel quality.

However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the source, so it is wise to accommodate for precipitates when blending. As you, Bill, are doing.
2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch. This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle.

[BushBill Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BushBill]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,

"However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the source, so it is wise to accommodate for precipitates when blending. As you, Bill, are doing.
2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch. This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle. "

I disagree with the above. I have a mate who has made some poor batches in the past. He often has them settling in buckets. He had them in these buckets during a time when there were large variations in temperature. You could see the dropout on the bottom of the bucket. He siphoned off the biodiesel from the top into a clean bucket, yet this new bucket continued to have a dropout. This was over a period of weeks and the biodiesel had been mixed with a degree of petrol and petro-diesel.

If you think adding petrol is going to force out water and Glyc, over what time period are you talking about?? Over what temperature range are you talking about?

I believe that making good clean dry biodiesel is 99.9% of the answer to any dropout/precipitates. I am not prepared to risk injury to machinery by cutting corners for the sake of saving a bit of time.

You are losing a bit of credibility by sticking to your position instead of repeating the experiment with a different source of initial products. You are assuming you are correct despite different results from others.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Hi Jeffrey,
<Text removed by moderator>

, the biodiesel I bought at a fuel station in Tucson, AZ, USA, might very well have been very poor biodiesel quality.

It might have been very poor quality biodiesel. It was more likely to have been very high quality Biodiesel.
But because of the poor design of your experiment you did not even perform the most basic first step of checking the quality of the biodiesel. So it is meaningless to sit and speculate.

However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the source

Why is it reasonable to expect that? Do you mean like all the dirt and crud that your equipment put into the blend?

2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch.

It is also possible that little green men will kidnap me into their spaceship this afternoon. Actually that is more likely to happen than what you are proposing

This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle.

Considering the "glycerine" layer is miscible in petrol and petrol is miscible in biodiesel, why would the petrol force the glycerine out of the biodiesel?
<Text removed by moderator> There is already enough misinformation about producing biodiesel on the internet. <Text removed by moderator>Please stop adding to it

[SUZUDDIS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SUZUDDIS]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Boys , I think we have gone far enough here. Might want to stop having a go at each other.

While we all believe in what we preach , sometimes it doesn't fit with what others practice. No biggy just deal with it and move on.
If this continues we may need a moderator to step in.

Jeffrey , when I process my next batch 150 liters I'll get some petrol and tip it in to check for the dropout.
Hope you don't mind waiting a couple of weeks but I'll put into the batch.

Michaael

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Blending gasoline with biodiesel

Jeffrey,I disagree with the above...
If you think adding petrol is going to force out water and Glyc, over what time period are you talking about?? Over what temperature range are you talking about?

In 5 years of blending I consistently find blending petrol with waste oils forces water and particulate out of solution. It takes about 24 hours for this to happen with WVO and about 3 days for WMO blends. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that blending petrol with biodiesel might cause the precipitation of contaminants in the biodiesel which could be used to purify the biodiesel if the blend were made in a settling tank and not in the fuel tank. Whereas, if the blend were made in the fuel tank, then it may cause premature filter failure, and possibly other problems.