lift pumps

[gonzalo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gonzalo]

Hello there,

I have just discovered this forum and have seen that the amount of useful info is great. Here in Spain nobody really knows about this stuff.

I have a small Peugeot 205 diesel, in which I have installed a 2 tank system. The first 46.000km of WVO have been trouble free, but then the problem arrived: Air.

I have spent the last 3 weeks trying to fix an air leak, but I don΄t seem to be able to. It is as if disappeared and came back again for no reason. Even more air leaks in when the engine is hot. After hours and hours trying different things and isolating individual components with no success, I am too tired to keep spending time on this, so I thought of installing a lift pump near the main tank so the whole system will work under pressure rather than vacum. Is there anything I am missing? Will it blow up the filter or any connections?
I have read that FACET pumps seem to be the ones to go for. Would you be able to recommend a particular model? Any other commendable brands?
Would I need a regulator?

Thanks a lot
gonzalo

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: lift pumps

If its gone well for 45,000 ks I would say you have your problems sorted, you just have a "fault" that needs recitfying. I did what you suggested, and had no luck, but did it for different reasons, and on a different car. The big problem was I could not loop the return line to the veg feed line, but had to put it to the fuel tank, which introduced new problems.

My gut feeling would say change your veg filter. If its blocked, its flow will be reduced, the vacume will be filled from somewhere, and sucking air may be the easiest place. If it leaks "more when its hot" it may be more a case of "more air after its run for a while" After the engine has sat for some time, the veg can slowly fill the vacume in the lines. After its run for some time, the restriction will build up, flow will slow and the air come back.

Dont forget replacing some of your hoses with clear ones may help you trace the leak to some bits. If no air goes into the changeover device, but comes out, you have narrowed down your problem.

Bext of luck.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: lift pumps

Just read your other thread where you say its not the filter. My only other suggestion is to get a vacume guage and see how much vacume the engine is drawing when at speed. perhaps you have a blockage somewhere which is causing air to leak in?

[gonzalo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gonzalo]

Re: lift pumps

Thanks for your comments. Your reasoning about air accumulating rather than the engine getting hot as the root cause is probably right. I didn΄t think about it. This probably means that the leak is very small, because it takes a while for the car to starve, and when it does it is a matter of weak performance, but the car does not stall. Actually, the bubbles I see through the filter (it is transparent) are very small, similar to those seen in champagne.
If an additional pump won΄t fix the problem, I΄ll keep trying.

Thanks
gonzalo

[dagwill Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dagwill]

Re: lift pumps

looks like champagne,smells like champagne,-----------aaaarrrgh

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: lift pumps

Hi Gonzalo, if you do end up installing a lift pump, I've found that the Facet Posi-Flow is the longest lasting most reliable unit. You should be able to find one locally in Spain, but they are available from my site Home.

[gonzalo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gonzalo]

Re: lift pumps

Hi Gonzalo, if you do end up installing a lift pump, I've found that the Facet Posi-Flow is the longest lasting most reliable unit. You should be able to find one locally in Spain, but they are available from my site Home.

Hi. I believe you still have some problems in your web page (I will keep trying), but yes, I read somewhere else that the Posi Flow and the Gold Flow are both pretty good. Would you be able to give me aprox prices in case I end up fitting one and don΄t find them here?

Would you think that pushing oil through the filter would make you get more miles out of a clogged filter? would it blow up something instead?
I ask this because it seems logical to me that if the injection pump cannot suck enough fuel once the filter starts to get clogged, wouldn΄t it be good to help it by pushing fuel from the other side of the filter?

Thanks
gonzalo

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: lift pumps

Great, not just my computer then! I am considering a pump on the 'cruiser, if I cant get it to stop sucking air. (I had considerd using the pump to move things a bit, and ensure any air is sent back to the tank with any excess oil.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: lift pumps

Chris,
Would adding a used PS Pump as a fuel pump be an option. Belt drive may require some engineering work (mount fabrication etc) and the addition of a pressure relief valve would be essential, but I reckon that one of them would be able to push the veggie easily.

Several members of WARFA have loder Tojo's and have not added a separate lift pump. I do not know thether these are inline or rotary IPs though.

Keep up the good work,
Tony

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: lift pumps

I will try to avoid using a lift pump for the "kiss" principal (keep it simple stupid) I am amazed at how much air I can see leaking into parts of my system, even though the it does not suck much vacuum. (yeah I know the air wont be helping the lack of vaccum, but if it was scucking heaps and leaking I would be more sympathetic.)
As the whole lot is on the bench at the moment (I thought it best to remove it before the injector shop retimed the engine ) I may see if I can locate some leaks.

I think earlier toyotas had inline pumps (neat) whereas mine has a rotary (ho-hum) Knowing the lubricating properties of air, I would like to get rid of the air leaks!

I do have a power steering pump in the shed, so will look at it as a pump. I wonder if it could be electrically driven to provide a smaller but more controllable amount of oil? Say using a washing machine fill switch (runs off as small amount of air pressure) and a winsheild wiper motor?

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: lift pumps

Hi guys - yes the site IS still having problems - most annoying!!

I had some terrible issues with air in both of my vehicles mainly on cold mornings during the colder weather when the oil is quite thick until it gets to the engine bay. I installed a lift pump in each of them, and it fixed the issue immediately.

I tried all sorts of electric pumps, from second hand ones at the wreckers to Holly and Carter pumps. None of them could handle the fuel. The Facet range of pumps seem to have been the longest lasting.

I spoke with their product manager in the US and he recccomended the Posi-Flow pump, which includes a replaceable 60micron filter before the pump. I've been using one of these for 15,000km so far without a problem.

I sell the Posi-Flow pump for $140

Regards
Marcus

This is what they say about them:
POSI-FLO Pumps

• Application: The highest quality and dependable Lift Pump
and Priming Pump for Diesel Injection Systems. OEM for
most Diesel Engines, Heater Systems, Marine Engines,
Generators. Agriculture and Construction Equipment.
OEM in numerous Military application. Universal Pump
for most Carburetor equipped applications.

• Fuel Compatibility: No rubber diaphragms or valves to
swell or deteriorate in alcohol blended fuels. Compatible
with leaded and unleaded gasoline, diesel fuel, blended
alcohol fuels, and fuel additives.

• Solid State Reliability: Proven on thousands of original
equipment applications. No electrical contacts. No bearings
or diaphragms to wear out or fatigue. Lasts four to five
times longer than many other electric fuel pumps.

• Easy to Install: Two-bolt installation plus the small size
makes installation easy. For best results, mount the pump
close to the fluid or fuel tank and below the liquid level.

• Eliminates Vapor Lock: When properly installed on most
vehicles a constant, smooth, dependable supply of fuel
under pressure is assured in the hottest weather or in high
altitudes.

• Features:

• 12 - 84 inches minimum dry lift
• 14 - 34 GPH
• 2 - 11.5 PSI
• Transient Protection
• State of the art Electronics
• Sealed Electronics
• Reverse Polarity protection
• Built in check valve
• Built in Anti-Siphon Valve
• 1.6 amp average
• Self Priming and Self Regulating
• 18 ounces and 3 inches
• Corrosion Resistant
• Built in Pressure Relief

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: lift pumps

I set about fixing the landcruiser today.
To test the fuel system I put a pump just before my changeover valve (which is just before the engine) and drained my pump into a drum. This meant I did not need to run the engine to test it. (the pump consisted of a power steering pump powered by a drill- The pump came from a V6 holden commodore, and had a bolt screwed in the end and the head cut off)
I cut some 1/2 “ copper pipe (which is about 12mm outside diameter, and some 12mm pvc pipe (12mm inside diameter) connected them with a hoseclamp to make a clear section of fuel pipe. This meant I did not need to replace the whole pipe.
I started by putting 2 of these, one as the fuel entered the engine bay from the fuel line, and one after the flat plate heat exchanger (before the fuel temp pickup) This revealed the air was entering in the engine bay and not from the fuel tank, as none was visible at the fuel line (after it was primed) but had entered as it left the heat exchanger (this empties as the fuel runs back to the tank from the leak). I then put another before the fuel filters, which revealed there was no air there. I then put one coming out of one of the veg oil filters (It had 2 of these) Air-, Put clear line going into the same filter- no air. I had revealed the air was getting in at (one of) the CAV type filters.
I latter removed the leaking filter to see how it went with only one (it seemed logical as I had just broken the it trying to do up all the fittings, I am still amazed how much air it leaked with no visible signs) It has gone ok, with only a bit more vacuum than on diesel.

(update: injector pump packed up again, CAV filter leaking in air again, pulled IP and CAV out, replaced seal in IP, replaced CAV with toyota filter. seems to leak a lot less)

[Mr Ute Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr Ute]

Re: lift pumps

Hi Marcus,

Do you have the Posi-Flow pump mounted back at the tank prior to the filter/s?
If so what sort of pressure are you getting after the filters at the IP?
Are you pumping hot or cold oil with it?
Cheers.

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: lift pumps

G'day Mr Ute,

Do you have the Posi-Flow pump mounted back at the tank prior to the filter/s?
Yes and No. On my Nissan Patrol, I have installed a pump at the tank, and in the engine bay for the second tank. The one in the engine bay is temporary until I move it to down near the tank. I replaced the existing spin on filter with a Cav, and needed a pump to prime it, so I just whacked it in at the engine bay, and it seems to work just as well as the one at the tank, although I do have some air issues with the one in the engine bay, but not the one at the tank.

If so what sort of pressure are you getting after the filters at the IP?
Very little - just enough to prime the fuel system when cold. When hot it flows quite well. I can't tell you what PSI as I haven't measured it, but the lift pumps are used simply to assist in getting the fuel to the engine bay and are low PSI anyway.

Are you pumping hot or cold oil with it?
The oil is cold before the pump, which isn't an issue for it. It has a head of about 600mm from the tank to the highest point of the fuel system. The pump says to install it in an environment where it is below 60deg C, so I imaging that the fuel temperature shouldn't be higher than that either.


Regards
Marcus