Kerosene Supply

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello David
I have looked up the viscosity tests and will try to make some sense out of them.
Viscosity testing was performed using the World Famous Dr Pepper Viscosimeter (Pat Pend) - Topic Powered by eve community


1. Kerosene is a bit higher in viscosity than petrol
2. High conversion biodiesel is a bit higher in viscosity than Kerosene
3. WVO heated to 80deg C as used in heated SVO systems is quite a bit higher in viscosity than high conversion biodiesel.
4. My summer fuel made from 50% low conversion biodiesel (13% methanol) and 50% WVO was quite a bit higher viscosity than the 80deg C WVO.
5. Mixing 1 litre of WVO with 250ml Kerosene made a fuel that had about the same viscosity as my 50/50 fuel

No mixing tests were performed with petrol, but at a guess your fuel that mixes 1 litre WVO with 200ml petrol would likely be about the same viscosity as my 50/50 fuel was

[angus@aroundyoga.com Member Find all posts View Profile Close angus@aroundyoga.com]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Thanks to everyone who's posted to this valuable thread.

I'm currently blending WVO with diesel, which seems to me straightforward as the blending agent (diesel) is known to work well in a diesel engine, no matter how much you put in! I also just go to the servo, put some diesel in the tank then top up with WVO at home.

I'm curious as to why nobody's discussed this as an option ?

Angus

[Mr Ute Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr Ute]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Angus,

I'm with you on this one, I do exactly the same thing. I don't have access to Bio to blend with so am using diesel. I haven't had time to read into the ULP & WVO blending but in my experience diesel engines don't like petrol (ask my brother in-law ). I was running on straight warm filtered WVO but have am now using a bout 15-20% blend with diesel to help smooth out the idling.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Tilly,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to try some tests myself to see how much petrol and kero it takes in a blend of WVO to match the viscosity of regular b100 or dino diesel. Of course the twist is trying to measure it at a temp of 80oC

Angus, Ute,

I have read up on using diesel as a blending additive but have gone with other thinners for a couple of reasons.

I read a lot on infopop about WVO causing wax and precipitates to drop out of Diesel. My impression is this generally happens in cold weather ( snowing cold) and with winterised blends of diesel. I have no idea if our fuel here is winterised like in the states. I did however try a blend of diesel and WVO fairly early on and within something like 8 litres of blend used had a filter full of a substance that looked like the old Lux soap flakes.

I am using the 60L or so I have of this fuel as fire starter, degreaser, weed killer etc and haven't played with dino as a blending agent since.

The other reason I haven't bothered with Dino is cost and effectiveness.
In blending, the prime goal is to thin the WVO out to make it more diesel like in its viscosity. In comparison to petrol and kero, diesel is pretty thick.
It is my belief that using 20% petrol in a blend would be more effective in thinning it than using a 50/50 diesel blend.

Taken to the ultimate conclusion, even a 99/1% diesel / WVO blend cannot get down to the same viscosity as diesel on its own. With petrol or kero, because they are thinner than Diesel, it is easy to get a blend below the viscosity of diesel itself.
In practice, I am a lot better off cost wise by just adding 20% of petrol or Kero than I am adding 50% Diesel which I am guessing would still not make the blend as thin as using the other 2 thinning agents.

Certainly with using diesel or Kero you could hedge your bets by running the blend through a heat exchanger to thin it more which is something I am looking at trying with the kero.

Of Course the other thing with diesel is if you use more to thin out your WVO than you would use with petrol or kero, you are also using more fossil fuels which a lot of people really want to avoid.

I have seen on the info pop site some people make blends that would do a witch's brew look simple. Blends can be something like 50% wvo, 10% petrol 10% kero and 30% dino with a splash of some fuel additive thrown in for good measure.

I guess in the end it dosen't matter what you use as long as your engine runs OK on it and it suits your conditions and requirements.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Something interesting I just found relative to the blending - viscosity issue.

GT Motorworks - WVO Viscosity

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello David

Those viscosity tests were all performed at 25deg C except the one at 80deg C.

David is correct about problems blending Diesel with WVO. I recommend caution

[angus@aroundyoga.com Member Find all posts View Profile Close angus@aroundyoga.com]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Well, oddly enough the car conked out yesterday, so maybe when they take it apart they will find some of the deposits mentioned from the diesel. I don't know if I'm up to the job of explaining to the guys at the servo that the gunk actually comes from their shitty diesel and not the pristine waste cooking oil I've been preserving my engine with!

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

In all the tales I have read of problems with bad fuel, the majority have been because of or as a results of using bad Diesel fuel rather than any problems caused by WVO.
Although people may be pouring "rubbish" in their tanks with WVO, everyone is particular about how they filter it and treat it and are familiar with how it looks even. When you put Diesel in your car, you pump it in and don't see it or have a clue how clean it is or how it has been handeled.
Perhaps this is explaination in itself of diesel seeming to cause more problems than WVO.

This last couple of days, I have been trying a 50/50 blend of Bio and WVO. The Bio I am using is top quality but so far it seems that Helga is the least happy on this mix than any other tried so far. Starting, even warmish starts have been very slow (10-15 Seconds of cranking) and I noticed tonight I could see smoke in the headlights of the car behind me which I have never noticed ( and I look for it) before. The car seems to run ok, maybe a tad more sluggish but other wise fine.

I did try a Bio/WVO blend when I first got Helga and also experienced very hard starting but at the time I put this down to all the mucking around I had done with the car and it having air in the lines, my own inexperience with the car and just about anything else but the fuel blend.

Having now run all sorts of other blends without problem, I realise that the Bio/wvo Blend is something my Merc seems to have difficulty with. I might try adding some unleaded and see if that improves the starting.

On straight B100 it starts within a second but the WVO with the bio dosent seem to make a good combination in my car.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David,

I admire your trials but I also would like to ask you this ...

Isn't it the case that Bio mixed with WVO will give BAD BIO or in better term "unbalanced BIO" in result?

I have not read enough about making biodiesel but I know that accurate amounts of this and that have to be added to get the right result so by adding extra VO to the mix you are actually damaging the bio. What do you think?

Regards,

Fitian

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello fitian

It is a little more complicated than that.
An analogy:

Some petrol engines run fine on ULP
Some Petrol engines require PULP
If your car runs fine on ULP and PULP shows no improvement, which is the more sensible fuel to use?

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Okay I see your point.

Cheers mate,

Fitian

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

After experiencing very long cranking times to get my engine to fire on a 50% WVO/ B100 blend, I added about 10% Unleaded to the mix.
Starting has improved dramatically although running dosen't seem to have changed at all and is still good.

Looks like a triple blend works well with these base fuels.

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello again all.
I must say that of all the threads that I have read and posted on, I really do think that this has been the most valuable, useful and informative. Starting at the next paragraph is the reply that I just sent to the "single tank" I am too lazy to write twice and anyway, this is what I wanted to say here too. I want to express my deep gratitude to all who posted here, it has been a gold mine or, perhaps, a "gusher" of useful information.



Hey y'all!!!!!!!! Well I guess this is not the forum for a deep philosphical discussions and rightly so, in my view at least. I see that even summitwarrior has declined to give us his views on the various topics that I raised and seems to have diappeared into cyberspace.

OK, to something serious and relevant. There is a thread here called "Kerosene supply," and i have to say that I have found it the most practical and helpful thing that I have read. I heartily recommened it to "y'all!"

I mentioned in an earlier post here that I was running 2 vehicles on 20% petrol and 80% veggie oil, as a result of what I read on the "Kerosene Supply" thread. I am fortunate to live in "The Bay Of Islands, Nw Zealand's Winterless North and so I decided to wxperiment. I reduced the blend to 15% petrol/85% WVO, no problems. I then decided to lie dangerously and reduce it to 10% petrol and 90% WVO. All my 3 vehicles are now running on this, as is the tow truck owned by a mechanic friend of mine. He states that his tow truck runs smoother, quieter and smokes less. He is convinced. I also have a farmer friend who owns an old Pajero which he just uses on the farm. He agreed to be the guinea pig. His Pajero is now running better than it ever did on diesel and one morning he got in, forgot to let it preheat for the customary 30 seconds, and just switched it on. It started immediately. He was amazed. He has asked me to let him have 200 litres for his 2 Pajeros and, I fancy, some will be going into the tractor. My tow truck friend is already on his 3rd 20 litre batch and talking aout a 44 gallon drum and a pump!!

The discovery that, here at least, a standard,totally unmodified diesel engine will not only run,but run better, smoother and faster, on a mixture of 10% petrol and 90% WVO is totally mind blowing.

I own and operate Paihia Taxis & Tours Limited see www.paihiatransport.co.nz I have 2 Toyota Hiace Vans that I use for the business and a SSangYong Mousso pick up which is my workhorse.
The Toyotas are bog standard with 70 litre tanks. The Mousso has a Veggie oil conversion kit which came with a 100 litre Veggie oil tank and the standard SSangYong 80 litre diesel tank.

Unleaded super costs, currently, NZ$1.44 per litre, diesel is NZ$0.96 per litre. I currently get about 200 litres of beautiful WVO per week total from 2 local takeaways. Consider the costings and I admit that the collection and cleaning of the WVO is a cost, but mainly of my time and a few bobs worth of electricity


1) The Toyota-used for business
70 litres of diesel at NZ$0.96 per litre = NZ$67.20
7 litres of "Super" (10% of 70) at NZ$1.44 per litre = NZ$10.08
63 litres of WVO??????????
This represents a saving of NZ$57.12
I honestly am not sure how many km I get to a litre, so I used some examples. I think readers who may not have done this wil be surprised at least
Diesel
Assuming 10 km per litre, 700 km for NZ$67.20= NZ$ 9.6 cents per km
Assuming 7 km per litre, 490 km for NZ$67.20= NZ$13.7 cents per km
Assuming 5 km per litre, 350 km for NZ$67.20= NZ$19.2 cents per km

10% Super and 90% WVO
Assuming 10 km per litre, 700 km for NZ$10.08= NZ$1.44 cents per km
Assuming 7 km per litre, 490 km for NZ$10.08= NZ$2.20 cents per km
Assuming 5 km per litre, 350 km for NZ$10.08= NZ$2.88 cents per km
This will make a fantastic difference to the bottom line of my business. See example below
Suppose I do a round trip of 60 km and let's assume 7 km per litre
60 divided by 7 = 8.57 (litres)
Diesel-60 x 13.7 cents = NZ$8.22
10/90-60 x 2.2 cents = NZ$1.32

With the SSangyong the figures are even more mind blowing. Before learning of the "10/90" let's call it, the Mousso would warm up on diesel and then switch to 100% WVO. As I said earlier, the Mousso diesel tank holds 80 litres. It used to take about 6 km to warm up to switch to WVO. Let's use 7km per litre as in the previous example.
80 litres of diesel @ NZ$0.96 = NZ$ 76.80
7 km per litre = 560km = NZ$ 13.7 cents per km
100 litres of WVO ?????????????
The 60 km trip would cost NZ$8.22 on just diesel
The Mousso, assuming it warmed up after 7 km, would then do 53km on WVO and the 60 km trip would cost NZ$0.96, the 1 litre of diesel to warm up. The thing is, of course, the longer the journey, the cheaper it is because of running on 100% WVO after warm up. Example. I recently did a round trip of around 350 km in the Mousso. Using the same assumptions, I would have done 7km on diesel and 143 km on 100% WVO.I would have done 300 km for NZ$1.92 Boggles the mind doesn't it? But wait, it gets better.
I now put thr "90/10" into the Mousso diesel tank plus the 100 litres in the veggie tank.
The revised costings are:-
8 litres of "Super" @ NZ$1.44 per litre =NZ$11.52
72 litres of WVO ???????????????
100 litres of WVO??????????
In effect, I can get 180 litres of fuel for NZ$11.52
The longer the trips, the bigger the savings.
Let's use the 60 km trip again, except in the Mousso this time.
Assuming 7 km per litre 560 km for NZ$11.52 = NZ$1.65 cents per km
Assume 7km to warm up NZ$1.65 cents x 7 = NZ$11.5 cents for a 60 km trip. The longer the trip, of course, the cheaper it gets.It would have only cost the NZ$11.5 cents to do the 150 km trip because once it had switched over to 100% WVO, it would have stayed on it.

I know I have rambled on a bit, i tend to do that about things in which I believe passionately. I will close with this example of the savings with a 2 tank/conversion.

I filled up the Mousso at the beginning of December. I did 3200 km and still had a quarter of a tank of diesel left when I found out about blending petrol and WVO.
OK, 3200 km on 60 litres of diesel works out at NZ$1.8 cents per km
As I have said earlier, I acknowledge that the WVO has a cost, but the cost pales into total insignificance when compared with the satisfaction of making my own fuel, disposing of waste responsibly, reducing CO2 emissions and also Nitrous Oxide emissions, the batter goes in the compost bin and the worms love it. Finally I get deep satisfaction,and even joy, knowing that I am taking money out of the pockets of "big oil!" I know it is a pittance and will not affect "big oil's" profits, but I am doing my bit and, hopefully, more and more people will start. I anticipate my monthly fuel bill will go down from about NZ$500.00 per moth, to NZ$50.00 per month, I kid you not.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello Otherside

Interesting results, Keep us informed as to how things go.
Just one correction. The Musso Dual Cab has a 70 litre fuel tank.
SsangYong New Zealand - Musso Sports - Specifications

Mine seems to use about 10.5 litres per 100km when travelling, about 27 miles per imp gal.

Tilly

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello Otherside

Interesting results, Keep us informed as to how things go.
Just one correction. The Musso Dual Cab has a 70 litre fuel tank.
SsangYong New Zealand - Musso Sports - Specifications

Mine seems to use about 10.5 litres per 100km when travelling, about 27 miles per imp gal.

Tilly

Hello Tilly,
Thanks for your reply. It is interesting that the handbook for my Mousso, 2004 2 wheel drive sports definitely says fuel tank holds 80 litres!?!?!?!?! I wonder if Ssang Yong have changed it on later models.

Kind regards
Geoff-otherside532