Troopy purging help

[grantwe Member Find all posts View Profile Close grantwe]

Hi there

Due to a previous thread on this forum I discovered the reason my Troopy shuddered to a halt a few weeks ago was that I was by-passing the lift pump on the 2H engine in order to reduce my purge time by getting as close to the injector pump as possible. The injector pump simply coudnt lift the diesel on its own.

This is what I am proposing to do now...
WVO tank -> 20 plate heat exchanger -> tank selector valve (diesel rear tank enters here) -> lift pump -> Delphi 296 filter -> another fuel heater (12v) -> injector pump -> injector line heaters

I am totally bypassing the OEM fuel filter - is this ok?
What can happen if I dont totally purge the WVO with diesel as I have now dramatically increased the distance. Does it matter if some WVO sits in the system?
I'm not keen to install a second fuel pump - I dont know how to!

Also I have just finished my 2 tank upflow filtration system - many many thanks to Troopy HZJ75 for his help! My system is modelled on his.

I have then passed the oil through the 5 micron and 1 micron filters and kept a 200ml sample that I left on the bench overnight. The oil was extremely clear last night but this morning it had a cloudy precipitate throughout. They looked like little clumpy clouds suspended in the oil. They disappeared after 15-20 seconds in the microwave. I then put the glass in the freezer and they didn't re-appear - even when the oil started to gel??
On the hot pan test I see lots of very tiny bubbles at the bottom of the pan but no popping/spattering etc.
Also as I've cold filtered my oil through a enviro shopping bag - then settled it (only a few days though..) - then through a 5 and 1 micron filter I would have thought that most of the animal fats would have been removed?
Could it be the water? If so then why did it not re-appear after cooling. Surely the 15 seconds in the microwave would not have removed the water?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Cheers
Grant

[TroopyHZJ75 Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroopyHZJ75]

Re: Troopy purging help

Hi Grantwe,

Glad to here your upflow system is finished, have you got any pics?

Settling your oil for only a few days will not settle most of the sediment and water out, in my system the oil takes 6 weeks to pass through. I think as far as settling goes, the longer you can leave it the better.


This is maybe a better way to go with your system:

WVO tank -> 20 plate heat exchanger -> Delphi 296 filter -> tank selector valve (diesel rear tank enters here) -> lift pump -> another fuel heater (12v) -> injector pump -> injector line heaters

The suspended globs you see maybe fats.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Troopy purging help

Hi Grantwe,
This is maybe a better way to go with your system:

WVO tank -> 20 plate heat exchanger -> Delphi 296 filter -> tank selector valve (diesel rear tank enters here) -> lift pump -> another fuel heater (12v) -> injector pump -> injector line heaters

I agree with TroopyHZJ75 on this. You can keep your oem filter filtering the diesel tank: Diesel tank -> oem filter -> tank selector valve - > lift pump.
This method will also reduce purge time/distance over using 1 filter for both fuels. The lift pump should have no trouble drawing diesel through the oem filter as that's what it does normally. It will have trouble drawing cold veg through the Delphi 296 if the veg is cold so that's why you have an HE in the system.
IMO heating is only needed before the filter as you need to warm up a bit on diesel before switching toveg and the warm IP will do all the other heating needed.
If it was me doing the conversion and I hadn't bought any stuff yet I would get a 30 plate HE and the delphi(CAV) and not bother with the electrical heating.
The system would be:
Diesel tank -> oem filter -> tank selector valve - > lift pump -> IP.
WVO tank -> 30 plate heat exchanger -> Delphi 296 filter -> tank selector valve -> lift pump -> IP.

I have removed HE2 from my system and my lift pump is incorporated into the IP so my system is:
Diesel tank -> oem filter -> tank selector valve - > lift pump -> IP.
WVO tank -> Walbro pusher pump (1.5 psi max) -> 20 plate heat exchanger -> Delphi 296 filter -> tank selector valve -> lift pump -> IP.

Does your troopy have a fuel return to the tank? If so you will need a 6 port valve (or 2 x 3 ports). An alternative is to loop the return to the lift pump inlet but this will increase purge time/distance.

I am between Sydney and Newcastle.You are on the Sunshine Coast, some degrees closer to the equator.
Your climate is considerably warmer than mine so you should have less trouble with the cold than Ido, and so far I don't have any trouble.
Good luck with your conversion.

[TroopyHZJ75 Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroopyHZJ75]

Re: Troopy purging help

98Troopy,

Why did you remove your pre IP HE?

[grantwe Member Find all posts View Profile Close grantwe]

Re: Troopy purging help

Thanks again for the help guys,

I think the cloudy stuff was water as there where tiny water droplets on the bottom of the glass this evening.

Back to the filtering - I've read somewhere that heating the oil in the drums can speed the settling process up e.g placing a heating element at the bottom, heating the oil up to say 60-70'C then allowing it to cool slowly?

Cheers
Grant

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Troopy purging help

I agree with TroopyHZJ75 on this. You can keep your oem filter filtering the diesel tank: Diesel tank -> oem filter -> tank selector valve - > lift pump.
This method will also reduce purge time/distance over using 1 filter for both fuels. The lift pump should have no trouble drawing diesel through the oem filter as that's what it does normally. It will have trouble drawing cold veg through the Delphi 296 if the veg is cold so that's why you have an HE in the system.
IMO heating is only needed before the filter as you need to warm up a bit on diesel before switching toveg and the warm IP will do all the other heating needed.
If it was me doing the conversion and I hadn't bought any stuff yet I would get a 30 plate HE and the delphi(CAV) and not bother with the electrical heating.
The system would be:
Diesel tank -> oem filter -> tank selector valve - > lift pump -> IP.
WVO tank -> 30 plate heat exchanger -> Delphi 296 filter -> tank selector valve -> lift pump -> IP.

Does your troopy have a fuel return to the tank? If so you will need a 6 port valve (or 2 x 3 ports). An alternative is to loop the return to the lift pump inlet but this will increase purge time/distance.

Paul,

Grantwe's got a 2H motor, so he has a separate lift pump from the IP and no return line. The lift pump does not draw fuel through the OEM filter, it pushes it through it. There are solid steel lines from the lift pump to the OEM filter and back down to the IP.

Grantwe's not all that sure how to instal a second fuel pump, so I'm thinking he is best to leave things after the lift pump well alone.

I'm not sure what body your 2H is in Grant, but it may have 8mm lines. My advice is to not add load to your lift pump by getting it to suck oil through any filters, esp if you have 8mm fuel lines. I'd stick to your OEM filter for your oil.

If you're not confident with things such as splitting your steel lines off your lift pump or OEM filter and adding an extra pump, then don't. Keep it simple and have a long purge. Given the 2H does not have a return line, you are not going to get a super fast purge anyway. Granted you will have to purge all the WVO from the lift pump, OEM filter, the IP and the lines but it will be simple and within your capacity. Might be 700mls or oil, give or take. That's probably 5km of driving give or take.

Froggo has a 2H. See how he does it.

Tim

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Troopy purging help

Paul,

Grantwe's got a 2H motor, so he has a separate lift pump from the IP and no return line. The lift pump does not draw fuel through the OEM filter, it pushes it through it. There are solid steel lines from the lift pump to the OEM filter and back down to the IP.

Grantwe's not all that sure how to instal a second fuel pump, so I'm thinking he is best to leave things after the lift pump well alone.

I'm not sure what body your 2H is in Grant, but it may have 8mm lines. My advice is to not add load to your lift pump by getting it to suck oil through any filters, esp if you have 8mm fuel lines. I'd stick to your OEM filter for your oil.

If you're not confident with things such as splitting your steel lines off your lift pump or OEM filter and adding an extra pump, then don't. Keep it simple and have a long purge. Given the 2H does not have a return line, you are not going to get a super fast purge anyway. Granted you will have to purge all the WVO from the lift pump, OEM filter, the IP and the lines but it will be simple and within your capacity. Might be 700mls or oil, give or take. That's probably 5km of driving give or take.

Froggo has a 2H. See how he does it.

Tim

Agreed Tim,
it is always better to push through a filter than to try to suck through. This also saves the purchase of the aftermarket filter although it gives no backup if the filter gets blocked. In view of the further info I would suggest:
Diesel tank -> tank selector valve - > lift pump -> oem filter -> IP.
WVO tank -> 30 plate heat exchanger -> tank selector valve -> lift pump -> oem filter -> IP.

Long purge is difficult to avoid without considerable complication/expense but at least Grantwe should have a relatively short warmup being on the Sunshine Coast.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Troopy purging help

98Troopy,

Why did you remove your pre IP HE?

I removed it to reduce purge time/distance.

I felt able to safely remove it as I believe it was redundant.

It was there for 2 reasons (I think).

1. to heat the oil prior to IP with the intention of helping to warm up the IP and to give more chance of hotter oil getting to the injectors.

2. to heat the purge fuel before the IP to prevent 'thermal shock' from cold fuel arriving at a hot IP.

1. the small amount of warm oil will have no effect on warming the IP and the oil will instantaneously take on the IP temperature on entering so no amount of oil heating will have any effect on the IP temp or the outlet temp from the IP.

2. There will be no thermal shock as the oil has such a low specific heat capacity compared to that of the metal in the IP and the mass of the small amount of oil is insignificant compared to the mass of the IP.

Removing HE2 has had no effect on anything except purge time/distance.
The IP warms up just as quickly, as do the injector lines.

The only change I would make would be to change HE1 to a 30 plate to speed the heating of oil before the filter.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Troopy purging help

The only change I would make would be to change HE1 to a 30 plate to speed the heating of oil before the filter.

This is an incorrect information.


30 plate will only heat more volume of oil. It will not speed oil heating.

The 2nd heat exchanger which you removed is there to speed the change over to wvo.

Your daily trip to work is 100 kms one way - by removing the 2nd heat exchanger , you have reduced the purge distance by 2-3 kms at most. Not even 0.5% of your daily trip to work.

I did not install the 2nd heat exchanger on the basis of "buy one get one free".

Thanks

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Troopy purging help

1. to heat the oil prior to IP with the intention of helping to warm up the IP and to give more chance of hotter oil getting to the injectors.

so your system now delivers a colder thus higher viscosity oil to your injectors thus more strain on IP and possible poor spray patern.

come on you have read about the dangers of incomplete combustion on veg oils why chance it? Oil needs to be hot to get the viscosity to a similar to diesel level.

Fitian didn't put the second IP there for looks. I'm sure he did it based on overall relibility,safety and above all Expierince. What is so bad if you have to purge for an extra minute? come on if its that bad just run bio to purge its about 30c a litre i'm sure it wont break the bank.
just my thoughts.

[froggo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close froggo]

Re: Troopy purging help

Hi grantwe,

my "H" motor wvo conversion has been running fine with only one real issue which was my fault. If you need any help to set up your wvo system PM me and ask away.

God bless froggo.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Troopy purging help

Originally Posted by TroopyHZJ75:

Why did you remove your pre IP HE?

Paul replied:

I removed it to reduce purge time/distance.

I felt able to safely remove it as I believe it was redundant.

It was there for 2 reasons (I think).

1. to heat the oil prior to IP with the intention of helping to warm up the IP and to give more chance of hotter oil getting to the injectors.

Originally Posted by 98troopy
1. to heat the oil prior to IP with the intention of helping to warm up the IP and to give more chance of hotter oil getting to the injectors.
--------------------
so your system now delivers a colder thus higher viscosity oil to your injectors thus more strain on IP and possible poor spray patern.

Paul also previously wrote:
"1. the small amount of warm oil will have no effect on warming the IP and the oil will instantaneously take on the IP temperature on entering so no amount of oil heating will have any effect on the IP temp or the outlet temp from the IP."

So no - my system does not now deliver colder oil to the injectors.
I suspected so after thinking about it after being spurred to thought by HCII (thanks) and then tested the assumptions by measuring temperatures before and after by-passing HE2. Having found absolutely no difference in temp of the oil delivered to the injectors with or without HE2 I felt it was safe to remove it from the system.

For me, it is not about saving a few cents, it is about refining the system for optimum operation.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Troopy purging help

Quote:Originally Posted by 98troopy
The only change I would make would be to change HE1 to a 30 plate to speed the heating of oil before the filter.
----------------------
This is an incorrect information.


30 plate will only heat more volume of oil. It will not speed oil heating.

The 2nd heat exchanger which you removed is there to speed the change over to wvo.

Your daily trip to work is 100 kms one way - by removing the 2nd heat exchanger , you have reduced the purge distance by 2-3 kms at most. Not even 0.5% of your daily trip to work.

I did not install the 2nd heat exchanger on the basis of "buy one get one free".

Thanks

Emad, my good and dear friend, it appears I may have offended you. If I have I unreservedly apologise as this has never been my intention.

To all:
I have the highest regard for Emad Fitian and his work.
His ethics and integrity are without blemish.
His workmanship is second to none.
He undercharges for his time and effort.
His conversions are excellent and well executed.
I do not hesitate to recommend a Fitian Conversion.

Now,
Quote:Originally Posted by 98troopy
The only change I would make would be to change HE1 to a 30 plate to speed the heating of oil before the filter.
----------------------
Fitian:
"This is an incorrect information. 30 plate will only heat more volume of oil. It will not speed oil heating."

I stand corrected. I have not done any testing on a 30 plate so was simply assuming it would speed the heating. Thanks for the correction.

Paul wrote, regarding HE2:

"It was there for 2 reasons (I think).

1. to heat the oil prior to IP with the intention of helping to warm up the IP and to give more chance of hotter oil getting to the injectors.

2. to heat the purge fuel before the IP to prevent 'thermal shock' from cold fuel arriving at a hot IP."

Fitian:
"The 2nd heat exchanger which you removed is there to speed the change over to wvo."

Corrected again, thanks. I thought those 2 reasons, I thought wrong, again.

I determine when to switch to veg based on the temp of the fuel leaving the IP.
Since testing has demonstrated no difference in the temp of the fuel leaving the IP when HE2 was bypassed, it was not speeding the change over, although that was the intention.

Fitian:
"Your daily trip to work is 100 kms one way - by removing the 2nd heat exchanger , you have reduced the purge distance by 2-3 kms at most. Not even 0.5% of your daily trip to work."

Actually only twice/week. The other days I travel 15 km one way.
I have reduced the required purge distance from 0.5 km to 0.2 km or the idling time from 3 minutes to 1 minute. I still purge for 0.7 km or 3 minutes but I have a greater safety margin now - refining the system.

Fitian:
"I did not install the 2nd heat exchanger on the basis of "buy one get one free"."
I don't know where this came from? I know that you installed HE2 for very good reasons. I thought they were as I said above. I now know that it was installed to speed the change over to wvo.
I have proved to myself that it does not actually do that and so have felt safe to remove it.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Troopy purging help

Paul,
There is no need for apologies. I am not ofended.

It is your vehicle. Do what you like to it.

You obviously got the time and money to play around with the vehicle. Not sure now why you gave me the job to do.

No offense but I feel that you would not like it if it was perfect. You need to creat a problem out no where and then start to solve it.

It would have been much wiser if you have used the vehicle for a few more months to see how the vehicle behaves during cold winter period.

This is when most things change.

Or at least contact either someone running the same system or contact me before adding/taking parts out of the system.

As far as your tests, I do not think I could keep up with them and the number of long posts and threads you created 24/7 for the past three months.

Please think of who is going to read your posts and or what they are going to do after reading it. It is a responsability.

Regards,

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Troopy purging help

by measuring temperatures before and after by-passing HE2. Having found absolutely no difference in temp of the oil delivered to the injectors with or without HE2 I felt it was safe to remove it from the system.

I'd like to know the result of this very same test done in winter time, driving on a 100 k/h. "high demand for fuel".

For me, it is not about saving a few cents, it is about refining the system for optimum operation.

You said this a week after taking the vehicle from me ...

I have been able to maintain the 110kph limit up hills included however the troopy has usually been unladen, with 1 person and max 80 litres fuel.

Coming home yesterday on WVO I was able to maintain the 110kph limit up hills included, with 1 person and 300 litres of fuel on board - our max load so far. So this confirms that there is definitely no power loss and there may be some power improvement.

How optimum do you want the system to be?

When driving for 15km. Do not bother changing over to wvo simply because you will end up saving hardly 1 litre of fuel.