Consumption

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Consumption

Hi Guys,

I am a consumer. I have to be to some extent. I believe we cannot forget the big picture. Money talks. Thats were we are now. Lets start at home. Do the things we possible can. Bd is a great start. This year I am going to attempt to expand on my proactive incentives. I will be starting to pester the beejabers out of my MP about all the things he is ignoring and doing absolutely nothing about that is important and remind him how many photo opportunities he is having per month on many things he had no part in at all. An indicator is:- those who don't live in queensland probably do not know what it is like to have no health services to rely on and I mean 'NONE' Sure private health cover is there I have had it for the last 35 years. Nearly $300 a month and nothing of value on which to use it. It gone! Open letters in local papers, stand up and talk about all the preferential voting that steers your votes to the top of the S--- heap, complain about it and watch the fun then about boundaries. It will keep them busy but not doing what they perhaps should be doing. I have a feeling that we all should start accepting the responsibilities for a lot of this ourselves, we let the sods get away with it. We whinge a lot and shoot the breeze but we need to start now no matter how small a contribution. They get away with these things because we let them!!! It will not happen overnight so the sooner we all decide our own positions, doing what we each can is a start. No I dont have the answers, but I have opinions, something we should all start to find our alignment perhaps and do what we each can would be a good start. Help others to see the path, dont beat them into submission though. I refuse to read national papers anymore, see the TV news though Ugh! I am sticking were I can make a difference. Although I must admit I send odd abusive comments to MP's by letter and emails, not make a lot of difference but at least If they get enough it may affect their digestion.

From another P---- of countryman

Rgds

Dillyman

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Consumption

I agree, if we don't make our own changes and make a bit of a noise, we have no right to criticise or complain

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Consumption

Sure back in the 70's there was a lot of hype about it, but no one took any notice especially the politician, and elite, who appear to be brain dead to the realities of the world.

See, that is the very point I am making, thank you.

The long-hair-no-one-understands-me view of the world is that 'he' has found the truth and all those evildoers out there don't want to play his way.

However and despite Woodstock, the world works under certain rules one of them offer and demand. The day the "no one understands me" people get together and actually work within the rules they will probably make something good for the environment, market it within the rule of the game and besides making a mint, actually have an impact on the environment that is not negative.

There are also other rules one of them is opportunity cost. Suppose I decide to make my own fuel, disregarding the fact that I will probably brake half a dozen of local and federal laws and will have to lie to my insurer, this fuel of mine will have a cost of opportunity of probably $20 or more a litre. Rather bad business for me.

The world does not go green
because green is nowhere to be seen....

There is no evil conspiracy to destroy the environment, there simply is no viable alternative within the rules of the game. No one bothers too busy lamenting Kyoto and its enchanted cherries.

Yes, it is starting to show timidly and awkwardly a little, yet, thanks God for that. People who have calluses in their tongues for so much talking and complaining are actually waking up to the fact that green may actually be a good business.
It only takes to go to the eggs shelves in the supermarket and see how much more people are prepared to pay for a dubious assurance from some dubious people about how they treat or feed the chicken...TRIPLE price!!!
I think that says it all, it is fantastic business there for the picking.

However we still have the chorus of lamenting people who strum the old chords over and over about how they do this and that and how the others are so bad/ignorant/evil/more expletives of choice, because they choose not to.

Environmentally friendly choices are personal like your choice of food, to push it onto others using different guilt trips is in bad taste as it is to presume vegetarian is better than other diets, without considering the myriad of other elements that must be considered. Contamination of crops with pesticides, irradiation of vegetables, mineral content reduced by 90% or less than it was only 50 years ago due to soil depletion and a lot of other factors not to mention individual differences and genetic make up, make a vegetarian diet using commercially available vegetables a very poor choice.

What is a real contribution is to make what we know to be important available to others within the market rules.

There is where some old hippies may be able to shine.

Some have done it, changed the tune of their lamentations and actualy made a difference. Others have not.
Oh well...may be another time.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Consumption

However and despite Woodstock, the world works under certain rules one of them offer and demand. The day the "no one understands me" people get together and actually work within the rules they will probably make something good for the environment, market it within the rule of the game and besides making a mint, actually have an impact on the environment that is not negative.......

There is no evil conspiracy to destroy the environment, there simply is no viable alternative within the rules of the game. ..........

Who sets the rules of the game? If there is no viable alternative within the rules of the game, and the rules change to make sure it stays that way (Ie taxing biodiesel) does that not mean who sets the rules has an interest in promoting what destroys the environment? (ie fossil fuel and greenhouse gasses?)

There are also other rules one of them is opportunity cost. Suppose I decide to make my own fuel, disregarding the fact that I will probably brake half a dozen of local and federal laws and will have to lie to my insurer, this fuel of mine will have a cost of opportunity of probably $20 or more a litre. Rather bad business for me.

Who sets the laws that you would break if you were to make your own biodiesel?

Im interested how do you work out $20 a liter?

......... People who have calluses in their tongues for so much talking and complaining are actually waking up to the fact that green may actually be a good business.
It only takes to go to the eggs shelves in the supermarket and see how much more people are prepared to pay for a dubious assurance from some dubious people about how they treat or feed the chicken...TRIPLE price!!!
I think that says it all, it is fantastic business there for the picking.
.

Or perhaps a way of looking at it is if you sell your eggs at a discount because you dont treat you chickens properly, people will buy them because they only care about money. There are still farmers who would buy DDT to use if they could get their hands on it.....
So you are saying people are happy to pay more for environemtally responsible items, but there is no viable alternatives within the rules of the game? what does that say about the people and their beliefs about money?

However we still have the chorus of lamenting people who strum the old chords over and over about how they do this and that and how the others are so bad/ignorant/evil/more expletives of choice, because they choose not to.

So you are saying, anyone who complains about the environment and questons what others do is out of line? So if my next door neighbour is burning off I have no right to complain, I should just make sure I dispose of my rubbish appropriatley, or start a garbage collection buisness that undercuts matches?

At the end of the day, whats important? The environment or money? If we believe money, then its in Australias interest to dig up coal, not sign anything that may "devalue" that coal, and sell it and use it while we can.

However we live in the evironment, not the ecconomy.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Consumption

Hi Chris, Alga et al.,

Agreed, you can't eat money.

One of the problems that is obvious to me is that all the worlds 'reserve banks' bar one have a target of 2-3% growth (GDP) as a fundamental tenant. The problem of the innocuous sounding 2% 'sustainable growth target is that it is compound and therefore becomes exponential. This is fine in an artificial human construct such as economics, but in a fixed entity is fatal.

Indefinite 2% compound growth is simply not possible in any fixed entity; a plant, a farm, a city, a country, a planet. In a human being if the cells grew at 2% compound, we'd call it cancer!

So my tenet is this; physical growth in a fixed entity is not possible and 'sustainable growth' is a classic oxymoron. Such growth is only possible if the costs are externalised (usually to the environment), but eventually they will return to bite you on the posterior.

Anyway what do you do when the world's "independent" reserve banks push a system that is fundamentally flawed? If growth slows they will individually, and at times collectively, work to "stimulate" the economy so it is within "the desired range" of 2 to 4% growth.

I realise that this challenges many firmly held beliefs and assumptions, it is also threatening to the status quo (OK so I'm an ageing hippy type) and appears far too big an issue for many to contemplate let alone do anything about.

I've enjoyed this thread, nice to know there are others out there thinking about issues that interest and concern me.

All the best, Michael

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Consumption

“Environmentally friendly choices are personal like your choice of food, to push it onto others using different guilt trips is in bad taste as it is to presume vegetarian is better than other diets, without considering the myriad of other elements that must be considered. Contamination of crops with pesticides, irradiation of vegetables, mineral content reduced by 90% or less than it was only 50 years ago due to soil depletion and a lot of other factors not to mention individual differences and genetic make up, make a vegetarian diet using commercially available vegetables a very poor choice.”

Now that's one of the most illogical statements I've ever heard. So you don't eat vegetables as they are useless in your opinion, now that's a real different slant on reality. Anyone who buys their food from multinationals who peddle pathetic rubbish and call it food, gets the health outcome they deserve. True vegetations have been proven to be much healthier than those who live on meat and processed foods, that's verified by science and medical statistics. I don't shop in places like coles and Woolworth, when you do the economics of it, you save much more by shopping in small local business who sell quality produce, at better prices, plus you get service rather than being treated like cattle that will be sucked into anything put up by the propaganda of ruling elite. I haven't been into a coles or Woolworth for years, I prefer to use my money wisely. When you consider that processed meat products only have to have between 19 and 36% meat, the rest is offal, I can understand the lack of intelligence of those who laud then as being acceptable food and why there is so much food poisoning in the world.

Locally grown produce is always grown better, cleaner and has more nutritional value, as the growers care of their soils. Mass produced food producers, use whatever they can to increase their output, and increase profits, irrelevant to what the outcome may be for the consumer. Local growers, have pride in the food they produce and its quality. But I understand your knowledge doesn't appear to go beyond your office door. You sound like an economist, no logic, sense or understanding, just useless figures lacking meaning but scare tactics. $20 per litre, how about some evidence to support what you say.

I agree with you Michael, this constant growth is pure insanity and can only lead to disaster. Its the same with population growth and immigration, all leading to environmental and social disaster on the driest country in the world which according to the statistics, is drying up faster than any other country on the planet. But you won't hear the head in the sand apologists saying anything, but everything fine as long as I get my huge super any out. I hope they enjoy eating money.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Consumption

Hi Alga,
I farm biodynamically and would love to see some studies done on organic grass fed beef eaters who don't eat processed food and eat bioregional organically grown foods, vs. the typical non vego Aussie diet. I think the differences between vegetarians who eat organic and omnivores who eat organic would be slight if any.
The grain fed meat (that is 99% of all meat bar fish) in OZ is unbalanced (omega 3 and 6) and unhealthy, and I won't even talk about processed foods. Grass fed beef for example has the same omega 3 and 6 ratio as fish.

Don't think bioregionalism counts? Honey produced in your region will reduce (if not eliminate) the symptoms of hayfever in those who consume it who live in the area. Honey from other parts of the country / world will not.

Anyway this is really off the off topic now......... Cheers, Michael

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Consumption

Now that's one of the most illogical statements I've ever heard. So you don't eat vegetables as they are useless in your opinion, now that's a real different slant on reality.

I never said I don't eat vegetables, in fact I never mentioned what I eat at all.
I say pure vegetarian diet is no guarantee of health in fact if done with commercialy available veggies is more of a guarantee of malnutrition,

I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat any dairies, eggs or processed foods, and at 61 am extremely fit and healthy. I've never had a cold or flu, been ill or taken medication since the time I changed my life. During those last 30 years, I have owned an operated hotels, played in bands and travelled a lot, but still never get sick, because I'm sensible enough to not eat the things that are the triggers for viral infections, circulatory, organ and heart disease.

You seem to think that your diet is what has kept you healthy and therefore everyone else who is not sensible enough to turn vegetarian as you are, will catch viral infections, circulatory disease, heart disease and organ disease (presumably the last one is RSI from playing the Hammond organ)

Anyway... jokes aside, your answer has a few layers. It is true that you are heathy because you think that your diet is the best. Our own values and beliefs are the one that make our reality. The worst food you can eat is the one you eat with guilt "knowing" (even if it is untrue) that it is bad for you. So stay vegetarian please, but don't tell others they are wrong if they are not like you.
My father smoked a pack a day from age 18 to age 87 when he died from melanoma. Survived being buried under a brick wall demolished by a German bomb for a week, and was never sick until his departure.
That proves smoking is good for you.

Anyone who buys their food from multinationals who peddle pathetic rubbish and call it food, gets the health outcome they deserve. True vegetations have been proven to be much healthier than those who live on meat and processed foods, that's verified by science and medical statistics. I don't shop in places like coles and Woolworth, when you do the economics of it, you save much more by shopping in small local business who sell quality produce, at better prices, plus you get service rather than being treated like cattle that will be sucked into anything put up by the propaganda of ruling elite.

I am not sure vegetations are heathy. In fact people usually get them removed at very high personal risk, but anyway...I am interested at your take at (the evil) multinationals. Big companies sell products at the highest possible price and buy at the lowest possible price, products of the lowest possible quality promoting them as being the highest possible quality. And so does Con the green grocer. No different.They all buy from neighbouring farmers or same wholesaler.
It is the market regulators, the different health checks or lack of them and consumer awareness that stops or not bad food from entering the food chain. Con sells lettuce with pesticide on it just like Coles does.

The political snippet you manage to fit here and there are particularly old hat and have even less to do with vegetarian diet and health.

To conclude I must say that even when the topic has changed from environmental issues to vegetarian diet, in both cases, post have something in common. Both groups whinge about the (bad) rulers yet manage to do not much at all. If I had half your conviction on vegetarian being the solution to all problems, I would probably get into marketing organic at as biggest scale as I could rather then complain about the ruling elite misinforming the ignorant cattle and the propaganda machine.
After all I will need a propaganda machine to sucker cattle into buying my organic vegetables at the highest possible price with some advertising line saying that they will never get sick, ever.

[Biofuelnz Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Biofuelnz]

Re: Consumption

Don't worry it will be all over for them soon - problem is they will be knocking on your door !!

[dillyman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dillyman]

Re: Consumption

Well People,

Change takes time. To make a quick change that is possible, we start with ourselves first, BD is a good one. It is old hat I know, but excuse an old F--t. We know money talks these days, this will continue to happen, reason, our democracy. Most of the people believe we live in a democracy, true to some extent, but, what kind. Certainly not a peoples democracy. It is now a certain Political Democracy. You have no chance of getting a nomination to stand for the seat of power (apart from independent - nothing wrong with that, but, vunerable and can be neutralized so easily if you dont compromise.) Unfortunately in our present climate we can align our political democracy with the alternative, political dictatorship, -Whats the difference?- they still do what they want. Your choice in the ballot box is a joke, you vote only for people the party is able to manipulate. How many referendums have you been in? the results , have they been relevant? the conclusions were, but, it makes little difference anyway. Change , it can come from the people,if we are able to take the responsibility ourselves, we dont have to be great radicals ,but make your feelings felt. If you dont then keep what you have and get on with your life.
I feel able to shoot the breeze this morning as it is Sunday and I have to be reverent, otherwise what I have to say would be unprintable.

Rgds

Dillyman

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Consumption

Hi Dillyman,

It has been said that Australia is a democracy for one day every three years or so (when we vote) and the rest of the time we live in a political dictatorship. How else do we explain the fact that over 70% of Australians (from several polls including those sympathetic to the war) didn't want our troops in Iraq (and still don't), yet we are there?? I could go on but ............

Michael

[Maxwell Member Find all posts View Profile Close Maxwell]

Re: Consumption

Hi All,
The coal industry employes a lot more people than would the hydro,wind or solar industies combined.
Thats a lot of votes.
A political party can"t change things if its not elected.
Peter Garrett is the classic example, a major voice for the enviroment until he got elected.
Cheers
Maxwell

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: Consumption

Hi All,
The coal industry employes a lot more people than would the hydro,wind or solar industies combined.
Thats a lot of votes.
A political party can"t change things if its not elected.
Peter Garrett is the classic example, a major voice for the enviroment until he got elected.
Cheers
Maxwell

Yeah I dont envy Peter Garret. He's already comprimised his views and will have to completely sell out by the time Kevin gets in to power. Great hair cut though...and ya gotta love that dance.

"Well you can say your Peter, say your Paul, don't put me up on your bedroom wall. Call me, (call me...) King of the mountain"