Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

[vegetable Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close vegetable]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

The 60 cents was law.
I bent over backwards to fork out $4999 for a 2 kw system, and then waited 9 months for it.
I was supposed to pay itself back in around 3 years.

Count in the price hikes in electricity (which we were told were coming...) and the drop to 40 cents, it will barely be paid for by the time the tarriff is gone (2016?) There will be very little benefit financially from it now. I just love investing for my families future and having the government tear me a new one. Its thuggish and disgusting thievery.
OOOOhhhhh, i feel good though and might hug a tree...

What really gets my goat, the majority of people had their opportunity to get an install, why punish those who have the solar schemes and invested in their future.

The way its going, I might just get a biodiesel generator and power my house so the bloodsuckers don't get any of my money.... it might even accidently be connected to the gross feed in meter sometimes.... woops.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Vegetable, yeah they (Governments) seem to be stuffing solar schemes up all over the country. Here (SA) they are going to cut the feed in tariff dead in October, so grid connect will be a waste of time, unless you use all the power as it is produced, like a factory. I paid $9500 for a 1kw system a few years ago so am fairly envious of your deal, especially having some time at 60cents gross. We have only had 54cents net.
As for only paying for itself in 3 years please let me know of any investment where I can get all my money back in 5 years and still have the asset in near new condition. Thats about 20% on your investment when banks are paying up to 6%

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Our new (Liberal) premier was prevented from doing the wrong thing as he didn't have control of the upper house. So it seems our 60c is safe until the next election. He should have thought of that before he announced it as the whole exercise has cost him heaps in credibility. Apparently he promised before the election that the 60c would stay for those already on the scheme. Announcing that he was to break a promise before he knew that he had the power to do so seems foolish in the extreme.
Is that right, that SA is dumping the feedin tarrif completely? Surely they have to pay you what they charge you for it. That was my understanding as to what would happen here in NSW when the scheme finishes. That is, currently they charge us about 17.5c/kWh and they would pay us a net feed in tarrif of 17.5c/kWh. I estimated (guessed) that by 2017 the price would be about 60c/kWh so a gross feed in tarrif would be the same as a net feed in tarrif.
Since we use an average of 5 kWh/day and produce an average (est) 12 kWh/day we should continue to get a very good return on our investment.
It has been very overcast and rainy here for the last few days and we have been down as low as 3 kWh/day produced. Even on such a day we are being paid 3 x 60 = 180c/day and are paying 5 x 17.5 = 87.5c/day so we are still 92.5 cents ahead.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

In WA last year, the Government has changed the nett feed in tariff from the same price import Vs export (you also pay GST on your purchase from the grid) to a 7c/KWH price they pay for the electricity exported.

To sweeten the deal they then announced a 40c/KWH feed in tariff in addition to the 7 cents. this was to remain in place for 10 years from the install date.

In the State Budget they have cut the FIT in half (20c/KWH) for those who have not applied for connection by June 30 and have not had it installed before end of September.

27c/KWH is only slightly more than what it costs you for electricity on the standard tariff (21.87 c/KWH) and significantly less than what they charge on the Time Of Use tariff (40.14 c/KWH).

When the 40c/KWH price becomes less than the current tariff, our grid connect will be decommissioned and connected to my stand alone system (with switch to choose mains or solar)

Regards,
Tony

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Worst day ever yesterday: 1.6 kWh for the day.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

.....Is that right, that SA is dumping the feedin tarrif completely? Surely they have to pay you what they charge you for it. ...........

One would think so but this is a government which seems to make bad decisions one after another. Spend 2billion on a desal plant which no-one will need because the water is now so dear every-one is either putting in their own rainwater tanks or cutting back on their water use. Sell the forests, sell the Lotteries. Spend $675M on an oval for a couple of losing AFL teams. Rebuild a section of road which was the best part of that road while leaving the worst bits alone (South Road) I could go on. To think I voted for this mob, how conned can you be.
The solar guys are fighting hard to extend the feed in scheme so we will see what happens. If it goes then absolutely no-one will put in a solar system where any electricity will go back to the grid for a miserable 6 cents. OK for factories but homeowner - waste of money.

[SUZUDDIS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SUZUDDIS]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

I don't have a solar setup but my first reaction to these changes where what Tony posted. I know the initial cost is high but the benefits would probably outway the cost. but you need to plan on a long term payoff. If you are luck enough to have the system pay for itself in 5 years then install the batteries in 5 years when the FIT gets removed. "and it will" because the next election will be about cut and shut budgets.

it's the only way to get this country floating again. god knows I don't want to be held at ransem by china and india because we haven't payed our bills.
I'm not saying what they are doing is right because you have an agreement in place, which clearly isn't worth a pinch of sh$t to the standing government. What they should have done is to install mass grid systems on people houses and paid a rent for the space. That way the rental should only go up.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

The way I see it, solar power is a complete furfy when it comes to supply of power to the masses. The power is produced at the wrong time of day and the technology associated with reliable power storage is not yet there.

As solar supply is not reliable enough, the traditional coal and nuclear plants still need to remain on line and operating at power production levels as they take a certain amount of time to ramp up from "idle". Therefore net gain by producing power with solar cells during the day is minimal.

Then there is the other side of the coin - quantity of energy produced by the solar cells themselves. I have heard from a very reliable source - an ex CFO of one of the country's leading Solar cell manufacturers, that the actual amount of energy that is utilised in the production of the solar cell is usually not captured in the usefull life of the cell. They did an exercise adding up all the power in kJ that goes into the entire extraction / refining / production / marketing / transport / installation process, and it became obvious that that solar cells couldnt capture and supply this amount of power. Either the cell needs to become significantly more efficient, or a better way of making the cells that doesnt use as much energy needs to be found. Until then, the whole solar debate is centred around what is really just a gimmick.

Personally I believe that by installing solar cells at the moment, you are actually adding to the problem (in a rather benign way) for two reasons - the energy expenditure and also providing browny points to the mongrel politicians that instigated the scheme in the first place.

This is of course offset by some short term monetary gains to the individual through reduced electricty costs. But I think it will bite us all in the bum soon.

However, if there is no commercial need for the solar cells, then there is no real incentive for private enterprise to improve on efficiency. Bit of a two edge sword. If we want to embrace solar energy in the future, then we need to heavily invest in an essentially useless source of power now. The cost to society will be large, untill the entire scheme is improved (if it can be improved). Then it will take a long time to become viable even after the technology is developed.

Conundrum plus.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Cade,
Are you trying to start a Flame War???

• There has been research which shows that solar panels repay the carbon released in their production in around 2-3 years.
• In Winter, there is some validity in what you are saying about the power consumption and usage periods not coinciding. In Summer they coincide well, given the Air Conditioning load peaks during the day.
• There is insufficient solar generation at the moment to cause any power plant to be wound back to idling levels.
• There is a significant issue at the moment with wind power sites during low power consumption periods. In these cases, the power utility is required to take all of the power generated by the wind farms. The coal fired generators are not designed to be switched on and off and will operate very inefficiently because of the variability of the wind generation and the need to provide "spinning reserve" for the grid.
• Other renewable power generation like:

- solar thermal
- wave power
- geo thermal
- tidal
need to be developed to commercial levels before the renewable power can become the "base load" replacement and provide the buffer for the fluctuations in solar and wind power.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Oh I forgot.
The Federal Government incentive to increase the acceptance of solar panel installation across Australia - Paying 5 times the Credits generated in the lifetime of a Solar System "up front", as a discount on the System price, is actually causing the "Green Intentioned" individuals / families to contribute to the generation of 5 times the pollution they are trying to avoid creating.
This is because these Green energy credits are sold to generators to offset the pollution they are creating. Without these certificates, they would have to A. Pay more, and B. Update equipment/process to reduce the pollution they are causing.

Regards,
Tony

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Solar Electricity - Grid Connect

Hi Tony,

Lol, well on reflection , my post may be considered inflammatory, I'll admit that. That wasn't the true nature of my post though. I just wanted to make the point that I think that Solar technologies have a very long way to go before we can consider them for mass power supply.

Tony you are dead right about the sale of the credits. It goes along way to negating the whole system.

There are a lot of political undercurrents in action when you consider the rebate scheme, and I dont believe for one second that the rebate scheme is there for our benefit. It will probably come a time when the governments will want a meter on them so they can charge you for the energy you use from the solar array. Oh hang on - they already have one installed with the feed in meters!

watch that space....

They tried it on here in Queensland with a bill that required everyone to put a meter on their rainwater tank so they could charge for rain water usage. that one was defeated before it got through. thank god. That piece of attempted legislation was kicked into gear just after they pushed the rebate for rainwater tank installations when we were going through the big dry.

I wouldn't doubt that the government (state or federal) will say at some stage - well we paid for your solar array installation, so we will now charge for your power usage from that array (i.e. abolish all feed in tariffs). we are just about there based on some of our southern members posts.

I am pretty cynical about the viability of most green energy with exception of wave energy. That is available in most coastal areas with big populations (except north of course) in some form 24/7. depending on the size of the installation turbines, the power could be harnessed and stored (in the right location of course) by pumping water uphill. That idea came from Grey Hair. then a mini hydro electrical scheme could be utilised as required.

Tony, I must admit I am not familiar with the studies you mention that show it only takes 2-3 years for the energy capture of solar cells to exceed the energy loss from start of production to installation, but I would seriousely consider the voracity of those reports.

I guess I probably should read a little more on the subject, but it is hard to refute evidence that shows the contrary when the study that was commissioned by a private firm in an attempt to understand the market place better and to see where the next push in technology advancement should lead, clearly shows it leads to a dead end with regard to energy viability.

If it only takes 2 -3 years to offset the energy loss, why does it take dozens of years to offset the dollar cost if you take rebates out of the equation? I would imagine that the average solar array is only designed to work efficiently for 20 years absolute maximum. maybe someone can chime in there and tell me what the warrantee actually says. and its the warrantee that counts. if something breaks or fails and it isn't under warrantee, then you have just extended the loss cost. At the very least the wiring, frames and glazing will be buggered after that. even the building they are sitting on is only designed at the maximum to last for 50 years. I bet my butt that when the building is demolished or renovated, that a 20 year old solar panel wont be re-used.

How long is the inverter designed to last? that cost (both energy and dollar) needs to be factored in too. what about the energy associated with production of the steel / aluminium frame that it is mounted in? the polymer / glass panel protecting the cell? the screws and bolts that are used to mount it? the tiles on the roofs that the installers break? The aluminum ladders that the installers use? (they have a life too), the vehicles that the installers use? the refining cost of the fuel used in all the stages of production / transportation? The true list of energy consumption for these items is staggering. as is most things of technical nature.

There is a lot to think about and ponder, but I am yet to be convinced that solar arrays are viable beyond an individual installation on a low power usage setting like the home.

until they become viable for industry (that covers the entire process of production of solar arrays including mining) they will never be able to repay their energy debt.

Whatever form of energy capture / release / production that the future holds for us, for it to be a success story, it needs to be simply derived with simple technology and in a form that is easily transportable to where the energy is needed. that is the only way to keep production cost down, production energy loss down and to be able to produce reliable energy for the world.

You may argue that solar cells tick most of those boxes, and rightly so, however, the energy loss during production is the big bug bear.

I would love to be proved wrong here, not much would give me greater satisfaction to know that the world is headed in right direction. And when I say proved wrong I really mean it. reference to some study done by a university student for his / her thesis wont cut the mustard. I have seen the calibre of some of the university engineering Ph D's out there, and I am not impressed. (that is not taking anything away from someone with a doctorate - as I have no formal qualifications that count, but I have met a few young engineers with PH D's that couldn't sharpen a pencil without stabbing themselves. seriously....)

Like I mentioned, what I have to say should not be taken personnally or seen as a dig to those who have installed these items, as I am sure you installed them in good faith. I would just like to stimulate some good conversation and maybe learn a thing or two about a really hot topic at the moment.