Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

[dagwill Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dagwill]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

hi was reading all this interesting stuff, when i thought this may be relavant to a thread 'whats wrong with soap in bio.'

Below is a quote earlier in this thread

However, the rings exist in a far different environment. It is the 'scrubbing' of the moving ring that helps keep the ring groove clean. I would prefer to have a good quality oil, that was high in detergents, helping to dissolve any deposits in a ring groove rather than some water. Water is a lousy lubricant. It also promotes rust.

as they add detergent to lubricating oil ,why not soap in bio
dont mean to get off topic hear,it just seemed relavant with the cleanig power of water,soap is said to leave carbon deposits, but would it aid in ring cleaning

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello Dave
I see the problem. You have to be a member of that forum.
This is the home page where you can join if you want to read the article. (It is worth joining) Ssangyong Owners Club

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi All
Very interesting stuff in this thread to what avail I am still trying to figure out
Lets see if some pointers would be of some help
1.It is a well known fact that biodiesel is 12% lower in energy than petro diesel however due to it's higher viscosity this loss goes down to 8%
2. As rightly pointed out by Tilly Injection pumps are designed to run on petrodiesel therefore an adjustment may be considered necessary so as to get the "best" out of an engine on a fuel other than petrodiesel
3. All diesel engines are governed to limit revolutions as they will rev themselves to destruction if not so
4.All engines, at the end of the day are "Air breathing machines " it is not hard to figure out how much fuel they can burn as a ratio of air to fuel at any range of revolutions under ideal conditions
6.The calorific value of any combustible fuel is also well known what may be in short supply in an engine is air breathing ability The super/turbo charging of engines is a testament to that
5.We produce biodiesel so as to bring the oil or liquid fat closer to the viscosity of petrodiesel, the only reason we do that it is so as to prevent us doing any alterations to the engine adding other components or altering the fuel injection system
6.There is no fuel available that has not being used in the past or not used at the present in an engine for a variety of reasons as well as water injection back in the forties, alcohol(s) in racing cars, as well as lpg in petrol and fumigation in diesel engines, some polluting some benign
7.Either straight oil or the conversion of straight oil to biodiesel does have an enormous benefit to the environment with some modifications in the first instance and none in the second
8.There are millions of K's or Miles done on biodiesel as well as SVO worldwide in a variety of vehicles as well as machinery with conclusive evidence there is no problem in using biodiesel in a standard angine
9.SVO is a somewhat less evidenced case due to the modifications needed to be carried out Nonetheless given they done there is no problem there either
In conclusion;
We are all aware that biodieselers or straight oil users do it for a variety of reasons, some economic, some due to environmental, some for commercial reasons
Does it really matter? it is a good thing all round in so far as the environment is concerned, we are in a way or another somehow connected here
It would be fair to say that there will always be people experimenting with a variety of things relating to cars engines fuels etc
It seems to me whenever there is a post of something that extends millage performance or no cost fuel, the hits on the thread are astronomical in numbers
The Fitch as well as diesel power post's/threads are still here for any one to see
Very little to do with Biofuels, the promotion as well as the dissemination of information about biofuels is what this forum is about
In my view the KISS principle should be our aim here
Should not the massage be;
"Look you can use biodiesel in your car instead of petro diesel with no problems whatsoever"
and
"You can make your own biodiesel if you want to we can help you, as we do"
and
"You can run SVO in your diesel powered motor vehicle as well, if you dont want to make Biodiesel, but you got to spend money and do modifications to you car's engine"
We should be broad as well as general in our endeavours in promoting biofuels rather than very specific towards subjects of very specific interest
Now if I have got all or some of these points wrong can someone correct me please

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello Chris

You said:
"1.It is a well known fact that biodiesel is 12% lower in energy than petro diesel however due to it's higher viscosity this loss goes down to 8% "

I have never before heard that biodiesels increased viscosity was the equivalent of an extra 4% available energy. Can you provide a URL to a site that shows this to be the case or explain how increasing the viscosity of a liquid is the same as adding an extra 4% available energy

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Ooh! Just when things started to become interesting, the thread police kicked in.
Next there will be an exchange of invectives, some pity show down on technicalities like: mine is longer than yours, and then the thread will be locked.

What's up your nose guys? Why are you so itchy and prude?
Kindergarten comes to mind.
The guy wants to talk water injection, let him talk, he's done some good test and someone may benefit from it. Another wants to promote biodiesel...good for you why not, a third wants to make sure no one creates any energy for free, sounds like the Spanish inquisition to me but hey, all part of the fun.
Is it possible you take yourself a tad less seriously?
Life is short.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello Chris

You said:
"1.It is a well known fact that biodiesel is 12% lower in energy than petro diesel however due to it's higher viscosity this loss goes down to 8% "

I have never before heard that biodiesels increased viscosity was the equivalent of an extra 4% available energy. Can you provide a URL to a site that shows this to be the case or explain how increasing the viscosity of a liquid is the same as adding an extra 4% available energy

Hi Tilly
No need for a URL on that one Tilly
How about density?
Is it fair to say that density is related to the energy contained in a fuel?
If so the higher the density of a liquid fuel the more power it will pack in a given volume
Since the fuel injector pump delivers volume not weight it stands to reason than that a higher density fuel will provide more punch for the same volume
Biodiesel meeting the standard will have a higher density the petro diesel
Biodiesel is 0.87-0.88 g/cc as against 0.84-0.85 g/cc for petro diesel,
So the 12% of lower energy content in bio becomes an 8% power loss the difference been due to biodiesel's higher density or weight
In actual fact out there in the printed literature on biodiesel testing some argue that the power loss may be even less
The suggestion is that in some cases, due to the higher viscosity of biodiesel the amount going past the plungers or leaking in the injector pump is less than petro diesel so a lesser power loss is experienced from the engine

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Ooh! Just when things started to become interesting, the thread police kicked in.
Next there will be an exchange of invectives, some pity show down on technicalities like: mine is longer than yours, and then the thread will be locked.

What's up your nose guys? Why are you so itchy and prude?
Kindergarten comes to mind.
The guy wants to talk water injection, let him talk, he's done some good test and someone may benefit from it. Another wants to promote biodiesel...good for you why not, a third wants to make sure no one creates any energy for free, sounds like the Spanish inquisition to me but hey, all part of the fun.
Is it possible you take yourself a tad less seriously?
Life is short.

Hi Marc1
Would you mind if from now on refer to you as the Police Ethics Department
If this a role you wish to adopt I will certainly give you my vote
Any one else wishes to second it?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello Chris

So when you said there was a 12% reduction in energy you were refering to mass measure (W/W) but when you said this becomes 8% because of viscosity you are refering to volume measure (V/V) A litre of biodiesel weighs more than a litre of Petro-diesel.

Yes, it is necessary to keep your unit of measure constant to arrive at meaningful numbers.
Unless you are discussing jets it is more common to talk about volume when discussing fuel consumption.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Ooh! Just when things started to become interesting, the thread police kicked in.
Next there will be an exchange of invectives, some pity show down on technicalities like: mine is longer than yours, and then the thread will be locked.

What's up your nose guys? Why are you so itchy and prude?
Kindergarten comes to mind.
The guy wants to talk water injection, let him talk, he's done some good test and someone may benefit from it. Another wants to promote biodiesel...good for you why not, a third wants to make sure no one creates any energy for free, sounds like the Spanish inquisition to me but hey, all part of the fun.
Is it possible you take yourself a tad less seriously?
Life is short.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello David

No, I am happy at the moment with my Musso. When it gets a bit older I will probably make some adjustments

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

I was doing a little reading on water/alcohol injection, and it said that a mixture should not be injected into an engine until the oil temperature has reached 100 degrees celsius. I was wondering - how long would it take for an engine to reach 100 degrees under normal circumstances?

Also, assuming you had a cheap supply of nitromethane, would it be a good thing to add to water and inject? Are there any other fluids that could be beneficial to inject, like acetone for example?

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David!

I'm afraid I haven't fitted it as yet - still waiting for the Peugeot to come back from the repair shop! It's a little sick I'm afraid - not biodiesel related though! It's irritating not having my Pug - I'm a real pariah without my car!

While I've got the time I fitted the check valave and injector nozzle just after the intercooler. I positioned it as best I could and hope it'll work wonders. I also built an accumulator that holds about 30cc of liquid as I notced that the spray was surging when running.

I'll have to get my hands on some (cheap!) nitromethane and trial it when I've got it up and running. I thought about running isopropyl alcohol as well, but I doubt I could get it cheap.

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David!

I'm afraid I haven't fitted it as yet - still waiting for the Peugeot to come back from the repair shop! It's a little sick I'm afraid - not biodiesel related though! It's irritating not having my Pug - I'm a real pariah without my car!

While I've got the time I fitted the check valave and injector nozzle just after the intercooler. I positioned it as best I could and hope it'll work wonders. I also built an accumulator that holds about 30cc of liquid as I noticed that the spray was surging when running.

I'll have to get my hands on some (cheap!) nitromethane and trial it when I've got it up and running. I thought about running isopropyl alcohol as well, but I doubt I could get it cheap.

[Maxwell Member Find all posts View Profile Close Maxwell]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi All,
To create a greater pressure maybe a pressurized tank that you pump up may give a better spray pattern and not cost to much.
Distilling your own ethanol to use would cut costs, plus the water content would not be an issue.
Cheers
Maxwell

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi Maxwell!

I like your idea! I wonder how it could be done? A small air compressor perhaps? If a tank were sealed, then you could pressurise it once only, say with compressed air. Trouble is, you wouldn't have good control over the flow regulation.

I think the key to getting a well atomised spray is a high pressure pump.

I had an idea that might create a good spray. A water line (the feed line from a reservoir) would be broken into two lines with a T or Y piece, feeding two small windscreen washer motors. The pressurised water lines would be fed back into a single line, again with a T or Y piece. Pressurising a tank (good idea Maxwell!) might yield better results.

Food for thought!