Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

[Guest Close David]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi Maxwell,

I think the best way to get higher water pressure without spend too many dollars is to use a small 12V diagraph pump. I bought one from ebay a while back for under $50 and it does 35 PSI@ 4L per minute. The flow is waay more than enough and from what I have seen of many of the quality brass misting nozzles, anything above 20PSI is enough to get a nice fine spray.
There are pumps available that do still higher pressures but practically I don't think they would be nessacary.

I think a pump would be better than a pressurized tank from the aspect of pressure regulation, less likely hood of leaks ease of setup and choice of holding tanks. Also from what I have seen GOOD quality 12V compressors are way more expensive than high pressure water pumps.

Your idea with the home brew is interesting as well. The distillation wouldn't have to be real critical as 50% water left in the output would be fine for use in a water injection system. I did look at brewing ethanol a while back but thought it was more effort than worthwhile as a straight fuel and I didn't have a supply of vegetables etc for the feedstock. I am wondering if it is possible to make a super " mash" that has like 50% alcohol before it is distilled so you could just brew it, filter it and then put it in your injection tank? Given that 20L would go a long way, perhaps a super brew could be made without too much cost of sugar and yeast or whatever?

Tom,

Based on other experiments I have tried I am not sure your Y piece idea would work out. If it was to gain more flow, most likely a winner but I have come to believe that pressure is different. I think that when 2 pumps were used the pressure would be limited to the highest pressure of the strongest pump and the effect would not be cumulative. With other experiments I have done where gases were the medium in use, the higher pressure can also just backflow against the lower input if the flow of the output is limited enough by some resistance. I believe the fluid dynamics of liquids would behave in a very similar way.

Possibly the ultimate way of injecting water would be to do it the same way they do it on some BIG engines and the same way the sarich injector works.... use the principle of a spray gun. Water atomised by high pressure air. Using a system like this it is fairly easy to create a mist that is so fine the droplets will float around on the air currents and not fall to the ground.

Certainly optimal atmisation but for me a windscreen washer pump and a good nozzle will suffice for the time being

[Maxwell Member Find all posts View Profile Close Maxwell]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David,
Electric pump would be good, but to experiment with different pressures and flow rates would be a lot easier with a pressure tank.
If you want a better spray pattern maybe an agriculture boomspray nozzle would help as they have different flow rates, easier to mount in a pipe and wouldn't be that expensive.
A basic pot still would give you 40-50% alcohol.

Cheers
Maxwell

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David,

Looks like my bright idea for increased pressure needs more thought! I can see that it would work for increased flow, but I guess not for pressure.

I think the windscreen washer pump and an atomiser nozzle is a cool idea indeed. I thought about doing something like that but I shelled out and bought the water injection kit instead. I hope the increased cost will be worth it!

[Guest Close David]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

It's almost been a month now since I installed my water injection system on Helga and I have to say I am very happy with the results. I have just been using straight water with no Meth.
I have been keeping an eye on the oil to make sure no water is getting in there and so far all is fine.

I haven't done the acceleration tests with the various fuels as I was going to as I haven't been motivated to given everything is going so well. I will try Some bio to see how that goes being a fuel most people use.

My idea of testing the removal of ring coking on a small engine was abandoned. I was going to conduct this test with a 160cc 2 stroke engine till someone pointed out that the rings on a 2 stroke are directly exposed to the incoming air charge where as in a 4stroke like in a car, the rings are always in the bore and don't see the inlet charge directly. With this very insightful statement in mind, I haven't worried about doing what would be a meaningless test. I have some 4 stroke engines but they are a PIA to pull down and rebuild so I haven't been enthused enough to try the test on them.

I did look into blending the water with some bio and meth as an injection fluid but couldn't work out how to keep them blended without seperating.

So far I have put quite a bit of water through Helga. On the many longer runs I have been doing, I have been using approx 5L of water to 20 L of fuel consumed. A lot of the journeys I have taken have been to hilly areas with the foot to the floor for long periods at a time. Yesterday I purposely went up a steep hill with the water activated all the way up which took a bit over a minute to climb. I didn't detect any stumbling of the engine or any other sign there was too much water being used despite the revs dropping fairly low before the gearbox kicked down.

Before I installed the water injection, the engine emitted an amount of smoke at idle which varied with temprature and the fuel used. So far I have not noticed any change or reduction in this so the water has not had an effect in this area. I don't detect any smoke while the car is cruiseing along with or without the water injection operating.

Several times I have noticed the engine feeling a bit off song and when I have opened the bonnet to check the filter, I have discovered that all the water has been used up.
I have tried turning the water on and off while at full accelleration on a long run up a hill and cant detect any performance difference but somehow, I can detect the difference in the way the car goes when the water has run out

The water tank I am using has the pump built in. The tank is about 3L capacity which is really a bit small. I would like to go to a 10L tank which should be sufficent to hold enough water to get through a 25L tank full of fuel. I will keep a lookout for a pump that is barbed each end so it can be plumbed inline to a larger water supply.

I can't be sure if the water is keeping the rings free of buildup but certainly the water has improved the engine responsivemess and is maintaining it. I feel confident the water is keeping the upper end of the engine clean and the water is a very worthwhile addition in preventative maintainence.

Tom, Have you got your system up and running yet?

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello David,

Your results sound very encouraging indeed - I'm very happy that you've been able to report great results with it.

I've been thinking about how you could rig up a suitable pump to a bigger reservoir, and I may have the answer for you! You could get a small windscreen washer pump (the small 12 volt kind) and attach it to a tap (or even directly to the outlet) of a 15 or 20 litre carboy. I've been scrounging carboys (both 20 and 25 litre) from a carwash near the Northern Beaches, though I'm sure other carwash places would give you one. With that amount of water, you could get quite a range before refilling! At the moment I've got 2 carboys ready to go. Both contain a mix of 50% water, 25% methanol and 25% ethanol. Anyway, here's a link to a windscreen washer pump that might be suitable:

eBay Australia: Windshield WASHER PUMP for UNIVERSAL USE (MWP113) (item 300067533459, end time 05-Feb-07 20:29:24 AEDST)

As for my setup, it's ready to go as soon as I get my Pug back from the shop! Thankfully, a new camshaft and three cam caps arrived today from England, so I might have the car back by week's end! I've made up a simple loom for the wiring, and have made up a length of tubing to go from the intercooler to the boost switch. Also, in my Pug I am lucky to have a blanking piece on the dashboard that a switch for the convertible 306 would normally go. I decided to buy a Peugeot 306 switch and install it in the blank space so that it looks "stock". I wanted to paint a little 'W' on the switch but I'm not much good with a paint brush sadly. The switch essentially just completes a circuit to the pump so that when the boost comes on the pump will be triggered.

I tested my kit over the kitchen sink, and with the accumulator I built, the system is the absolute business! The spray is so fine it can almost be described as a dense mist. I was speaking to a chap today that said there is a relationship between the water droplet size and how effective it is. Something to do with surface area he said - the smaller the droplet size the more heat absorbed. The little garden nozzles work a treat he said, so I think you're onto a winner David! Keep us posted on how Helga is running - I'd very much like to see her one day.

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hello all!

I thought some of you might like to see what the water injection kit I bought looks like, so here's a few pictures!

From left to right:

1) This is the filter (the low pressure inlet side), the pump and the accumulator. Missing from this picture is the check valve and misting nozzle, which come after the accumulator.

2) This is a panel that came out of the dashboard. The ugly looking bit of hardware attached to the left is the boost switch, which is variable. On the bottom left hand corner I've carefully drilled a hole that a tube from the intercooler will run through, to be attached to the boost switch. On the panel I've attached a 12 volt bezel lamp that comes on when the system is triggered. Also shown is the switch I bought to replace the blanked off area which, in a convertible, holds a switch to control the hood mechanism.

3) This is a closeup of the filter on the low pressure side of the pump. I think they use these little filters on motorcycles. It's a perfect fit for the tubing I'm using.

4) This is a close-up of the accumulator I made. It's really nothing more than a few bits of brass connected together! The volume it holds is about 30cc.

5) This is a general picture of all the goodies in the kit. Missing is the check valve and injector nozzle. The tubing to and from the pump is alcohol resistant and while rigid, is somewhat flexible. The other piece of tubing is what I'll use to connect the intercooler to the boost switch.

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David!

You're most welcome for the link! As soon as you said you'd like to connect a pump to a bigger reservoir that's what came to mind. You might find them at your local auto parts store too - you won't have to pay for postage then.

I was interested to read about your observations on the 'pulling' effect Helga's engine had on the spray. I'm guessing that it would probably be breaking the water into finer droplets. I wonder if something like a home built venturi might be of any benefit? It looks like you've got a bit of room to play with there David!

Yep, I've been without my Peugeot for almost 2 months now! You should have seen the camshaft - it snapped like a carrot in two places. What a mess! Thankfully no damage was done to the pistons nor to the valves. Looking on the bright side of things, the whole thing has allowed me to replace the valve stem oil seals, which I think were pretty much at the end of their life! I'm going to go ahead and fit rings and bearings too. I figured with the head off it would be a good idea as I really don't know how many kilometres it's travelled!

I think the nozzle setup you have is excellent - it seems to do the job perfectly. It'd be interesting to see if another nozzle would make any difference/improvement. I've found a nozzle on eBay that might interest you:

eBay Motors: Water Injection Nozzle - Fine Mist Fogger - New (item 8015362559 end time Feb-08-07 14:35:47 PST)

Here's a link to a complete kit that is actually US$20 cheaper than the one I got!

eBay Motors: WATER INJECTION Alcohol Intercooler Turbo Supercharger (item 7969696205 end time Feb-09-07 20:50:48 PST)

Now to your queries! No need to apologise for asking them David!

The ethanol I'm using is not pure, but is denatured. I buy it at Woolworths for about $12.43 or something, so it works out to be about $3.10 or so a litre. The methanol I get is almost pure and costs $1.40 per litre - much better price! It's funny you should mention ethanol, because I'm in the process of building a reflux still! All I need is a hot water urn and I'm in business. It has a reflux column and a condenser that I built out of copper. I'll do a separate thread on it when it's completed.

The purpose of the accumulator is basically to provide a small volume of liquid to stop the surging action of the spray, which is caused by the action of the pump. It absorbs the pulses generated by the pump's piston and provides an even flow of liquid to the misting nozzle. Someone who is a bit more articulate might be able to explain why this works in more detail! Here's a link that better describes what it does:

Turbobits online shop - erl | aquamist | water injection | anti-surge accumulator | 806-410

The accumulator is fed by the pump at one end and exits at the other to then go on to the check valve. The fittings are brass and have Parker type fittings at each end.

Speaking of the check valve - it is not only a check valve, but it has the function of requiring a certain amount of pressure for it to allow liquids to flow through it. So when the pump shuts off, the spray turns off virtually immediately too. The opposite is also aided by the accumulator - when the pump is activated, having the small volume of liquid will cause the liquid already in the line to be pressurised much more rapidly, which in turn means your injector starts spraying almost instantaneously with the activation of the pump. Realistically, an accumulator is not vital, but I liked the idea of what it did, so I built one.

The pump that I have is indeed a Shurflo one. It operates on 12 volts and at 150 psi. I'm afraid I don't know the flow rate though sorry. I can tell you that it pulls about 6 amps and is alcohol compatible. It's a beauty!

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

... I've been without my Peugeot for almost 2 months now! You should have seen the camshaft - it snapped like a carrot in two places. What a mess!

Hum...only carrots snap like carrots, why bother fixing it? That wouldn't happen to a real car if you dropped it from the 7th floor on concrete.
If you realy must drive an err... car like that , why not go hybrid?

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Perhaps you can recommend a real car? I'm pretty stuck on the Peugeot brand, but if there is something better, please tell me!

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David!

My jois de vivre will be out of surgery sometime next week, which is not a moment too soon!

I think you're absolutely right about the freshen up - I'm hoping the work done will bring it up to a good standard. Did I mention I've decided to go ahead and fit a set of rings and bearings? Hopefully this will add a bit of pep and longevity to the engine!

I've read that an aftermarket air filter can work wonders over a restrictive air filter. I've got a K&N one in the Pug - it seems to make a difference. You can buy pod filters on eBay and at automotive stores fairly cheaply. Here's a link that might be of interest to you:

Mercedes-Benz 300D K&N Air Filters Oil Filters K and N

I've just been looking at the picture of Helga on one of the threads you began earlier - that sure is one handsome car! I'd love to see it in the flesh next picnic we have. The lines of those Mercedes Benzes are beautiful.

You might be right about the weight of all the gadgets and systems I have in the Pug! A friend asked me the other day "What exactly does your car run on?" Ha ha! I got the point. I think at the next picnic we have I'll be answering a lot of questions from very puzzled folk! Still, I'm happy to share what I've learnt and whatnot.

I've almost finished the alcohol still too. All I need is a few more bits and I'm done! I hope the ethanol will be good enough to use in the water injection system. I think it should be ok - fingers crossed. Earlier today I checked on the carboy of water/alcohol mix in the freezer. It's still happily sitting there at -22 degrees Celsius. I've also scrounged an old electric blanket that I'll make an insulating jacket out of. I can't wait to try it out!

Oh, I've read that I can make distilled water by using my alcohol still. I'll be doing a few runs with it so that I can use distilled water in the water injection system. If you would like some distilled water or even ethanol, let me know and I'll hook you up with some!

[BrianW Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BrianW]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

The removal of carbon from the combustion chamber is obviously the main benefit here. I have seen engines that have blown head gaskets where the water from the cooling system gets in and the combustion chamber valves and piston and clean and shiny. This tells me it will do the job.

Water doesn't burn, but with enough energy being input (ie cylinder combustion) it is possible the reaction is being reversed as is the case with all reactions. Instead of the water going straight through the system I suspect some of the H2 and O2 is reacting with the carbon and heading out the exhaust as a new compound.

I mentioned in another post that what I perceive to be gumming up inside
my combustion chamber is causing a noise similar to worn big end noise rattle but coming from the top of the engine (DI TD). I think it is the piston squashing the gum/carbon against the head. If I do a hard run on
diesel this disappears and the engine sound great again.

In late March / early April 07 I will setup to spray water via a basic WI system.

I also get some smoke while idling, which may be due to gummed up rings. I hope to see a noticable change in engine noise, have more performance, no blue smoke while idling, and reduce air through the crank case ventilation hose. I will report on the results, which I expect to be positive and I don't think I will need to pull the head off to confirm the results.

Sorry this is off topic, but a couple of points raised in the thread previous about the screw on the back of the injector pump. The screw on mine is probably a 6 mm thread and has a lock nut requiring a 12mm long socket to loosen prior to adjustments. As it is wound in the fuel pressure to the injectors is increased and my policy is to go in until I see too much smoke under acceleration. On a turbo diesel it will boost heaps quicker and you end up requiring less pedal for the same performance and impressive torque (makes it a completely different car).

As for upgrading the air filter, I understand that as a percentage of total restriction the filter equates to basically nothing and there are far greater gains to be made in other parts of the induction system (on a Falcon the filter is 1in out of the total of 16in). If the vehicle is non-turbo use a manometer to measure inHg at various points in the system to see where restrictions occur and where to make changes.

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hey there David!

Just thought I'd post a quick message to say g'day and see how everything is going with your water injection. I was thinking of you the other day when I spied a few misting jets at Bunnings. I was wondering - have you ever tried freezing water and methanol? I don't know why, but I'm stuck on this idea of freezing a mixture of water and alcohol. I don't know if there's any benefit to it - time will tell.

I have some good news - I get my Pug back in about two weeks! Now that I've written that it'll be a month! But, providing everything goes ok, I'll be back on the road in a fortnight. With new rings and bearings (not to mention the water/alcohol injection!) I'm convinced it'll fly!

[Guest Close David]

Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hey Tom,

That car of yours sure is taking a while! I think you could have paid off a new one by now. Have you booked in for " Learn to drive again" lessons in anticipation of getting it back?

My water injection, still in the crude state I fitted it, is working well. The car seems to be ever so slightly but constantly improving in its performance and I put a significant part of this down to the injection. My Uncle visited me at Easter and he told me a lot of things about how water injection had been used over the years and seemed to think it was a great idea. He is looking at fitting a system to his landcruiser to help with towing and general engine well being. He is using some Bio/veg in his car and thought the same as I did in preventing any buildup inside the engine.

I was kindly given one of those pod filters the other week but haven't had a chance to do anything with it yet as I got an infection in my hand and have been in way too much pain to get on the tools much as I have had the inclination to do just that. I think I can drill a small hole in the end of the filter for the water nozzle which given it's design, should keep the water in the middle of a column of air and vaporise the drops a little on the way into the engine.

Funny you mention Bunnings..... I was there the other day getting some fittings for a settling tank I am making and checked out all the watering nozzles just to make sure they hadn't come up with something finer than what I have. I did see something a while back but seems they are not making or stocking them anymore.
Now I know the water works beyond doubt, I might upgrade the system with a proper brass mist nozzle and a larger water tank as the one I have does run out a bit too quick. I am really surprised more people haven't taken this up with veg oil use. It seems a simple cheap insurance to me against a lot of problems but maybe there aren't enough people that are aware or using it yet for it to really catch on. I'm pretty sceptical about a lot of engine add ons but I am convinced beyond doubt that water works both for a performance boost (as minimal as it may be in some applications) and more importantly in keeping engines deposit and gum free.

I haven't tried the frozen water as yet. I have hardly run any meth mix since I did the tests in January although there are lots of times I have wanted just a bit more speed out of the old girl and thought about a second injection system just for some methanol boost. I think your idea may be sound and it would be interesting to see a test done with it on a car like yours which I think would show the most benefit from it rather than an old chugger like mine.

Maybe when you get your car back we should meet up one weekend for some testing?

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

Hi David!

It's been so long now since I've driven a manual car I'm not too sure if I can still do it! We'll see how we go!

I was thinking of a way to improve on your design but I think you've pretty much got it spot on. I wonder what other kinds of nozzles there are out there? There's the Bunnings garden variety (pardon the pun!) and then there's the more expensive brass ones. I think the brass ones require more pressure to make them work effectively though. I saw a kit on eBay (from America) for $174.95. That's even cheaper than what I paid for mine!

Once again we're in agreement - it's surprising how not many people have taken to water injection. I've read of nothing but benefit from water injection. All the forums and such I've visited sing the praises of using water and alcohol for gains. It'll be interesting to see how the Peugeot performs!

I was reading about the energy content of several fuels - ethanol, methanol and such. I know that ethanol and methanol have a lower energy content gasoline which makes them less than ideal (according to some websites!) for use as fuels. Butanol, on the other hand, is more similar to petrol than ethanol, and has a higher energy ratio to boot. I was planning on buying some butanol and giving that a try in the water injection system. I figured it would be better to inject something with a higher energy value than ethanol or methanol.

I'd very much like to meet up with you one weekend David so we can kick a few tyres and whatnot! I'm busy for the next few weekends, but I'm free anytime after that!

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Re: Water/alcohol injection and diesel engines

I hate to revive such an old thread, but I just had to report on the water injection kit. Yes - I've finally installed it after figuring the damn thing out!

So far I've had nothing but success! The kit works exactly as it should, and has thus far given good results. While I wouldn't say the changes have been huge, there does seem to be benefit in using a water injection setup. I've noticed that the turbo spools up a little quicker and the Peugeot pulls a little better on the hills.

The one thing I was surprised at was just how much liquid the system uses! On the highway, the system uses about 3 litres of water/alcohol per 100km. I've yet to check for leaks - I believe I may have one as this seems a little high.

Any input or suggestions would be most welcome!