Kerosene Supply

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Tony,

I thought I had mentioned that the reason for wanting the Kero or the Avtur in the first place was because I wanted to blend with it instead of the unleaded I have been using.

Sorry if that wasn't clear and didn't come across.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Dave, Thanks for the reply. My wife's car is not converted to run on SWVO yet this is also why I thought of using blended fuel since she drives only 20km a day to work. Now I sounded greedy. We take her car for lots of visits during the week too.

I reckon, my greed will be fully satisfied if I get bio from anyone who makes it at home, as long as it is a good quailty. I will have to run bio through my BFQT2000 first to make sure it is good before I use it in the car.

Cheers,

Fitian

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Fitian,

For short drives, I'm led to believe that having to wait for the HE's to get the coolant up to temperature before you could go to WVO and then having to change back to Bio or diesel for shutdown would make using a blend in your wife's car a good option for short journeys.
I guess you would know about changeover times a whole lot better than I do!

For a car doing shorter trips, I believe the ongoing cost of using a blend as against the the lump sum investment of a WVO conversion I think is very reasonable.

I have read that a conversion costs in the range of $500. Having not done it myself, the price of the components to me would appear to be closer to $250 but if I am wrong, you could double my calculations here which would only make my numbers look better.

Without going into all the detail, $250 would buy around 178L of Avtur. Blended at 20% this would give you almost 900L of blended fuel. At an average estimated milage of 9Km/L, this would be sufficient fuel for around 8,100km.
If your wife was traveling say 200Km a week, the payback on a conversion would be more than 40 weeks. More, because with a conversion she would be probably buying a high proportion of fuel for start up and shutdown for the short trips.

Of course if my estimate of conversion costs is wrong and $500 is closer to the mark for conversion costs, then you can see the payback cost of a conversion for a car used for the limited mileage you describe could easily take up to 3 years, possibly more.

My suggestion would be that perhaps it may be better for you to leave your wifes car unconverted and use a blend in it for the short trips and for the longer runs, just take your car that you can run on WVO.

I don't think you are being greedy, when you see something can be done for less cost, it only makes sense to reduce your expenses so you can put that money to things that your family can enjoy and benefit from.
Plus of course by using bio fuels, you are benefiting the planet and all that good stuff.

While I detect you are cautious about using a blend, there are more than enough people doing it to prove it works and works reliably and without any detriment to your vehicle. I'm sure converting your other car took a leap of faith which worked out to be a great benefit to you so giving blended fuel a go should be a much easier step to take.


On blending, I discovered a possibility today that may make blending an even more cost effective option for me.
I was talking to a friend about it this morning and getting the avtur from the airport. He told me he was talking to his brother in law on the weekend who works in the aircraft industry. Apparently when they take fuel out of an aircraft for maintainence or because it has been over fueled, they can't put the fuel back in the planes.

He said the planes are fully refueled after every flight and that if a subsequent flight has a full passenger and cargo load, the plane may exceed it's takeoff weight and some fuel has to be removed which can't be put back in later.

Apparently my friends brother in law was saying that they had too much fuel sitting round the Hangar in drums and would have to get rid of it. My friend is going to talk to his brother in law and ask what they do with this fuel and if I could take it off their hands.

The fuel is probably going to be Avgas which is a high octane petrol rather than a Kero based fuel but I am sure it would be fine to blend with even if it did take a little experimentation to find the best blend ratio.
I'd certainly be happy to get a 200L drum to play with to find out!

If I could get free Avgas to cut my free oil with, I'd really be a lucky fella!

[Hoops Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Hoops]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi David.
I am a L.A.M.E. Licence Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, The hangar I work in looks after two turbine aircraft. I have been using a blend of Avtur/Diesel for years in my 6.2L chevy landcruser. If I go less than 50/50 it's a real bitch to start (when its hot only).

As for the supply of Avtur if you rocked up to our hangar with a carton or two of beer you would most likely get your self a 200L drum of the stuff. AC fuel gets drained for all sorts of reasons. Most of the time it does not get put back into the AC as it my have been contaminated. So its used by people in the industry as a Diesel substitute, I have about 1000L of the stuff. I collect way more than I can use. I also live out of the way so I doubt I am in your area. So if you spend a bit of time on the phone or rocking up to the hangars in your area with some liquid currency in your car and I am sure you will find more avtur than you need.

I hope this helps.
Any ideas why I have starting dramas when the fuel is hot would be appreciated as well

Hoops

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Any ideas why I have starting dramas when the fuel is hot would be appreciated as well
Hoops

Could it be that vapor lock that David talked about earlier?

Regards,

Fitian

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Hoops,

Thanks for the very helpful reply!
I'd be glad to send some cartons to you in WA if you would sent me a drum of fuel in Sydney!

Failing that and my friends brother in law coming through, could you give me some more info on who would be best to approach for this fuel. I would take it maintainence places would be the obvious choice but would there be any other likely candidates?

Is the fuel usually separated into avgas and avtur or would most workshops just mix it together?

Do you feel it would be best to ring or show up in person and who would be the best person to speak to about it?? Is there a standard terminology for this fuel so I can make it easy for them to understand what I am talking about?

I go past an airport every day taking my kids to school so this could be a very convenient arrangement indeed.

I'm afraid the question of why your car won't start when hot is beyond my knowledge. It seems to be at odds with anything I could think of.
Have you had it to a diesel place to have it checked out at all?

Thanks again for the insider info!

[Hoops Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Hoops]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi David
When you go to or call a hanger ask for the chief Engineer.

Ask for Jet Fuel or Jet A1.

Let him know what you want it for.


The other place I thought of would be the refueling deports, Each morning by law they have to do a fuel sample looking for water. So they drain a few litres out of each tank and do a water test.
This is commonly known as the slops bucket. Each refueling deport in Australia do this each and every day.
Ask what they do with there daily water test fuel you may find they chuck it out. I am sure you will get a durm of them for a carton of beer as well.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David,

If I use 50/50 blend of wvo and kero. ..... Will I still be called "Green" ?

Hi Fitian,

I discoverd today that the independent servo I have been buying my petrol from for years is actually serving up an Ethanol blend which after quizzing the cagey owner, would appear to be at least 10% ethanol and likely more.
With this in mind, a Blend mixed up with this petrol would be more green than straight bio, possibly up to 10% or more.

I have been testing a 10% unleaded blend these past few days instead of my usual 20% mix after reading some posts on the infopop site.
Certainly it is a bit slower to initially fire up but it dosen't blow much smoke when it does start and the engine seems much smoother when traveling along. I'm now wondering if 20% petrol is too much in the warmer weather.

I think I'm getting a bit carried away with all this fuel blend testing. I currently have 4 drums sitting in the driveway all marked with different fuel blends that I swap in and out to test under different conditions.

Good job I have interchangeable fuel tanks... Couldn't be without them

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Fitian,

I discoverd today that the independent servo I have been buying my petrol from for years is actually serving up an Ethanol blend which after quizzing the cagey owner, would appear to be at least 10% ethanol and likely more.
With this in mind, a Blend mixed up with this petrol would be more green than straight bio, possibly up to 10% or more.

I have been testing a 10% unleaded blend these past few days instead of my usual 20% mix after reading some posts on the infopop site.
Certainly it is a bit slower to initially fire up but it dosen't blow much smoke when it does start and the engine seems much smoother when traveling along. I'm now wondering if 20% petrol is too much in the warmer weather.

I think I'm getting a bit carried away with all this fuel blend testing. I currently have 4 drums sitting in the driveway all marked with different fuel blends that I swap in and out to test under different conditions.

Good job I have interchangeable fuel tanks... Couldn't be without them

Hello again David,
Don't feel bad about "getting carried away with all this fuel blending," I had collected/saved differing samples of WVO in small pickle jars. My wife was, at one stage, getting quite concerned about me! One can become really obsessive about WVO. I find it totally fascinating and I really appreciate what you have written about blending. It has opened a whole 'nother new world.

I made up a "brew" of about 25 litres of your "20/80" blend and put it in a Pajero used by a farmer friend of mine just on the farm. It seems to be working just fine and even seems to be making less smoke!!!!!! I also decided to look into AV gas, as a result of comments here.

I go to our local airport (6 flights a day M-F, less on the weekend) from where you can fly anywhere, as long as it is to Auckland-Like Mr. Ford's "Any colour you like, as long as it is black!" Anyway, I digress. I went in the office yesterday and asked about the water test. A look of surprise crossed their faces and they wanted to know why I wanted it. I told them that I was "experimenting," which was true. They do do the water test thing every day and the sample is then, in effect, given away I spoke to one of the recipients and he told me that he has 40-50 litres and that I was more than welcome to bring a 20 litre drum to his place and help myself. No "case" required. I am off to the airport again this morning and will collect my first 20 litres of AV gas. I got the impression that they always have more than they can get rid of so my fuel costs may get even less.

You know of "hybrid" vehicles, I am going to call mine "frybrids!" "Frybrid" is not an original, I found it on a website but I thought it was really cute and suitable. How about this for signage "This vehicle runs on "fish and chieep oil, for a batter environment!? Bit "oily" eh, but, hopefully, it will get "more bums on our passenger vehicle seats!"

I will let you know how my blending goes. I wish I had known about it a while ago, I would have been further down the track by now, but "ne'er mind eh!" Keep up the good blend.

Kind regards
Geoff. A/K/A Otherside532

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Well David,
As they say in "The Deep South," "R dun bin gawn an' dunnit!" I "acquired " about 15 litres of aviation fuel, mixed it 15% aviation fuel and 85% WVO and put it in my 1999 Toyota Hiace.I made up about 23 litres altogether. I can now use up some of the oil that I have in my 1000 litre tank and I can use it commercially. My fuel costs will drop like a stone-Eat your hearts out Caltex and Mobil!! It goes a treat. The engine seems quieter and it certainly seems to have more zip. I now have, I believe, the first "frybrid shuttle operation" in New Zealand. It is thanks to you David, for putting this on the biofuels forum site. The savings on my 2 tank SSangYong will be even greater. If I put 60 litres of diesel in the diesel tank, it costs NZ$60.00 near enough, now all I will need to do is put in 12 litres of unleaded for NZ$17.00, or aviation fuel, and 48 litres of WVO. The mind boggles. I am looking to convert the 2 passenegr vans to 2 tanks also and that will make them even cheaper to operate and even more environmentally friendly.

Regards

Geoff A/K/A The FRYBRID man!!!!!!!!!!

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Just to put forward some other considerations.

The viscosity of the WVO/ULP WVO/AvTur will be considerably higher than the viscosity of high conversion biodiesel. This will likely lead to harder starting as it gets colder.
You could cut the methanol/NaOH used in the reaction and still make a lower viscosity biodiesel fuel than the 80/20 WVO mixes. I did some viscosity tests one time on all of this.
If you only used 12% methanol in your reactor and cut your NaOH back to around 5g per litre that would use 12 litres methanol and 500g NaOH to react 100 litres WVO from which you should realise about 90 litres of fuel with a lower viscosity than the 80/20 WVO/ULP mix
12X $1.20= $14.40 for the methanol
500g NaOH at 0.3 cents per g= $1.50
Total chemicals cost to make about 90 litres of low conversion biodiesel which will still be lower in viscosity than the 80/20 mix is about $15.90- about 18 cents per litre

90 litres of the WVO/ULP mix would use about 18 litres of ULP at $1.20= $21.60- about 24 cents a litre.

As a summer fuel for my Gemini I would make low conversion biodiesel (10- 12% methanol) and cut it 50/50 with WVO at the end of the reaction.
This gave a fuel that started hard first start in the morning but ran fine the rest of the day, cost less than 10 cents a litre and was hopeless on the first cold day of autumn.

Filtering and mixing the WVO/ULP/AvTur is MUCH quicker and easier than making biodiesel.

Jet A1 is the Australian standard for jet fuel. It is made entirely from the Kerosene cut in the refinery and may have some additives, but probably not..
Jet A is the USA standard for jet fuel and is not sold in Australia. It is made entirely from the Kerosene cut in the refinery and may have some additives.
Jet A and Jet A1 are virtually identical EXCEPT for freeze point. Both are called AvTur.
Both are virtually identical to heating kerosene and in fact most Kerosene fuels are all made to the same formula as it leaves the refinery With the kerosene used as AvTur receiving extra filtering and more closely controlled handling.

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Just a small question about blends, has anyone had any problems with filtering blends, is there a need to change the filter system or the blend releasing built up gunk in the fuel system. After reading this thread, I'm going to try my boats 671GM on an u/l blend to see how it goes. But I don't really want to be out at sea and suddenly have the engine shut down, although we do carry a lot of spare filters on board it would be inconvenient.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Geoff,

Well done on giving the blending a try.
I am glad there is another blender on here and it is working for you.
It seems that blending is looked at by many people as a bit suspect and I appreciate not every engine will be happy burning it but for those vehicles where it can be used, I think it is a fantastic option for using veggie fuel.

I think the reason blending is not more popular is due to an inherent tendency of over caution by many people not only in the bio fuel fraternity but also with ideas and technologies that are founded in cyberspace. The reason for this is self explanatory.
I understand that people want to be careful with the investment they have in their vehicles but I also think that blending is wide spread enough and proven by enough people now take away much of the risk and people should give it a go for themselves.

Considering the time, effort and cost of making bio or converting a vehicle, I think Blending for suitable vehicles is by far and away the winner in the Veggie fuel options.
I understand there are advantages to the other options and I intend to set myself up to make bio and to have a wvo system on my car but mixing some commercial fuel in a drum with some veg oil and putting it in your car has to be the most economic option if not in outright cost, then in time and effort.

While I do appreciate your thanks, like you I just learned about blending in my general reading about Bio fuels and decided to give it a go. Other people’s efforts and input such as Hoops heads up on the aviation fuel test source and Tillys advise on using Kero which took me down this track in the first place, have all helped me with my blending so lots of people have helped us both.

IF you are able to even get a portion of your fuel from the airport, this will reduce your costs even further and make your bottom line look even better. I don’t know what your clientele are like for your tour business but perhaps there is a market to promote a tur as enviro friendly and line yourself up with some other business to capitalize on any potential market once you get your buses converted.



Be careful with your with you witty signage though, the people who don’t understand may drive you nuts asking you the same question what it means 100 times a week.
I have been meaning to get on photoshop and print myself up a sign for along the bottom of the back window of my car. I was thinking of something like “ Mercedes Diesel Power. Fueled by environmentally friendly used cooking oil” Of course one that only the bio fuel crowd would get would be “Running on used cooking oil. Smell the fish and Chips.”

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

I did some viscosity tests one time on all of this.

Once again Tilly you come up with more info on something I had either not considered or thought of in regards to low conversion bio.
I'm learning of so many options with Veg fuels it's getting hard to know the best path to take!

With the blending with the various additives, Did you determine the differences in the amounts required of each to achieve the same viscosity on a given sample of WVO?
I am interested to know in a blend of say 20% unleaded, how much kero or diesel it would take to achieve the same viscosity with the same oil?
I would assume kero and petrol would be quite similar (?) but diesel would take significantly more to achive the same thinning and was maybe not achievable at all other than for very low perentages of petrol or kero.

Did you do anything to determine this or could it be worked out from the specific gravitys of a fuel taken from a MDS?

If a blend was cut with avGAS rather than petrol, what would be the effect of the different octane values of these fuels? AS avgas would be harder to light off, would more be able to be used in the blend without causing problems in relation to it causing knock or other side effects?

I have read that in a blend, the WVO lights off in the cylinder before the petrol does. Given that in performance petrol engines the compression has to be kept way lower than in a diesel to avoid detonation, it would seem to me that the petrol would light off before the WVO would. Given that WVO is supposed to have a higher ignition temp than diesel, it would seem even more likely to me that the petrol in a blend would light off first.
Which component of a blend do you think is the first portion of the blend to ignite?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello David

When I did the viscosity tests I was not terribly concerned with using petrol as a thinner, Cheap kerosene was readily available at the time.
I found that the cheapest fuel was low conversion biodiesel mixed with WVO
I'll dig out the test results tomorrow and see exactly what I came up with in regards using petrol and kerosene.

A word about Avgas. Avgas is petrol. I believe it contains lead.
AvGas is a high octane fuel which does not self ignite easily under pressure. This is not a good charachterestic for a fuel used in a diesel engine.
WVO will have a lower self ignition temperature than gasoline of any type.
You want a fuel that has a low self ignition temperature, not a high self ignition temperature.

AvTur is kerosene. it will work fine in a diesel engine as long as you add a few percent biodiesel to provide the lubrication.