Kerosene Supply

[nature fuels Member Find all posts View Profile Close nature fuels]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David,

Very true words, what you said makes sense. A thermostat in a car also slows coolant alowing it to remove heat. I wonder if the fuel has enough time to get to the same temp as the block at full flow (revs). I have read some threads of people with coking problems ( they claim heat corrected it, but who knows ). As a test we should measure the return line temp, that would remove any doubt.

Im not knocking blending and i am very keen to use it for my self but I have read articals on coking and the different types of veg oil, from palm oil to canola. Some oils are not very suitable for SVO such as soya bean oil with reports that engines will not last very long unless heated.

The days of the old farm tractor that will run on anything from sump oil to kero are a bit different to some of the new common rail injection systems.

I hope blending works just as much as the next person.....

P.S Businesses are not all about money I want ours to succeed more so for the enviroment and our childrens future. Someone needs to bring cleaner fuels to the market before the less integritty of the big Oils win creating a total monopoly.

I would also like to return alot of the profits back to improve sustainable farming and native habitats. I am from a farming background and it is sad to see alot of Australia farm land have been degraded even in the short 200 years of agriculture. That is the reality of life.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi,
Firstly, doubts and scepticism are healthy!!
A question to ponder:
Does it matter whether the oil, once it is in the combustion chamber, enters the chamber at 15 or 90 degrees C? Bear in mind that the internal temps of the chamber. Is a difference of 75 degrees going to make a difference when we are dealing with many hundreds if not thousands of degrees inside the chamber.
The answer appears to be yes, but it has to do with the spray pattern created by by the injectors which in turn relates to viscosity.

So whether we heat or blend all we are attempting to do is create a viscosity in our oils that resembles dinodiesel. This way the spray pattern enables a clean combustion process and coking is not likely to be a problem. BUT if you drive your diesel vehicle 3km to work each day and the engine doesn't get hot, it doesn't matter what you put in the tank you'll get coking.

In short blending or heating helps the fuel system (from tank to injector tips) do the job for which it was designed ie. handling a liquid with the viscosity of dinodiesel. Once the appropriate viscosity is achieved AND the cetane rating of your fuel isn't too out of whack the engine will do it's thing.

cheerio, Michael

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hello fine people,

I just went ahead and topped up the main tank in my wife's 300D (not converted yet) with 30 L of WVO. so it had about 40 L of mixed diesel and Biodiesel before. I have been running around with it for the last two days with no dramas at all. This is about $36 worth of saving.

Regards,

Fitian

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Kerosene Supply

There may be a reason why there are no records of engines that have done long distances on blends...... Although I would have to say, the mercedes style engine would be the one to do it on.

Blends advantages: easy, cheap to set up, little difficulty.
Disadvantage: If the fuel seperates out, you may start the car on 90% unleaded, . You are still burning fossil fuel (although a smaller amount)

Svo Advantages: no fossil fuel when hot (if this is better depends on lenght of trip).
Disadvantage : if you dont flush it, the car will be hard to start, may not start requiring the IP and lines to be heated, does require the car to be converted, you do need to kep track of how far to destination before switching the diesel back on.

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi,
Separating of the SVO/WVO and kero/ulp/ethanol/etc. in the system is a concern. My reading of it is that the additives act like a solvent and so shouldn't separate in the short term. But I confess to not having tested this, anyone else tested this? If not will do so today and leave a while and report back. Will do 80/20 WVO/ulp and 80/20 WVO/kero blended then settled in glass jars. My WVO = cotton seed oil.
cheers, Michael

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

OK test has commenced and now consists of three blends:
1. 80/20 WVO/ulp
2. 80/20 WVO/kero
3. 80/20 WVO/dinodiesel
All three blends in half litre sealed, clean and clear glass jars, in full shade and ambient temp 20 degrees C. All blends vigorously shaken for 30 seconds. WVO = used cotton seed oil filtered to approx 50 micron and settled for 15 days. So not fine filtered yet.

90% of bubbles rose to the surface of #1 blend in 10 seconds, #2 in 22 seconds and #3 in 55 seconds. I believe this gives a good indication of relative viscosity of the blends - the faster the bubbles rise to the surface and dissipate the lower the viscosity.
Visually the #3 blend is the lightest in colour followed by #1 with #2 the darkest.
As the WVO is from the same batch I thought this was interesting as visually the ulp appears lighter in colour than the dinodiesel. The kero is the darkest but that's probably because I only had the blue coloured household type on hand.
Will report back at end of day say 10 hours and then in a week or so, sooner if something dramatic happens .
Cheers, Michael

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

I just went ahead and topped up the main tank in my wife's 300D (not converted yet) with 30 L of WVO. so it had about 40 L of mixed diesel and Biodiesel before.

HI Fitian,

Just keep an eye on your filter. I have tried blending with diesel and WVO 3 times now and every time I got what looked like soap flakes in the filter and lots of them. This even happend in my stationary engine.
I also haven't had much luck with blending Bio and WVO although I am going to try that again just to reassure myself I haven't seen unlucky and mixed it up with oil that was fatty to start with.

I know you use the MB screen type filters instead of the Supercheapo type so possibly any fallout may pass through this relatively coarse screen and into your main filter where you can't see it.
On my car the first sign of a blocked filter is the car idling rough and hesitating off the lights. It also hasn't taken much fuel to cause the blockage in the small filters, 8L in one instance.

Have you noticed the car taking any longer to start on this blend? Mine always takes longer on a blend.

If you do start having any problems, I would ditch the fuel, clean the tank and change the filters. If you want any help with the tank, just let me know and I'll give you a hand with it. It's not a hard jub but there sure is a trick to getting them out easy.

I Will be interested to see how you go with this to see if I was just unlucky or if it unfortunately happens to you, that we can conclude it is not a good practice with the fuel we have locally.

Michael,

I love reading about tests like I think a lot of other people do.
I have had a jar of WVO and Unleaded sitting on a shelf for what must be 6 months now or close to it and it does not seem to have settled out a bit. This would confirm what I have read about this blend not having a problem with settling but if your tests can confirm that, so much the better for the practice of Blending.
I am confident that there will be no settling with the Kero either.

The results of the WVO/ Dino will be interesting to see given my experiences in the past as I mentioned to fitian above. If you start to see anything dropping out of this mix, I'll get my tools ready to pull his tank out . My blends with dino were more around 50/50 so see what happens with the 20% ratio.

Just last night I was thinking of a WVO/ B100 blend test so I'll start that one today to add to the research pool. I think I will try a 50/50 blend with that because I don't believe that 20/80 would be sufficent for any meaningful viscosity reduction.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David,

I had no trouble strating my wife's car this morning and it did not take longer than it normally takes to start. Idling is also normal as a matter of fact it is calmer. I am almost through one tank already with no difference to before blending. My WVO is very clean and will filtered and the engine is a very healthy condition too.

As for the MB pre filter. I think you'll change your mind about it if you break one of them and take a look at what is inside. it is not just a screen.

Stay well mate.

Fitian

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David, I should have known you'd have done a separation test on your blend

Hi Fitian, do tell, what's in the MB pre filter? Replaced one just recently but didn't open it up.


Been thinking about the purists who say blending SVO/WVO and dino fuels is not as clean and 'green' as it could be. The solution is obvious, blend SVO/WVO with ethanol (E100) - sustainably grown etc. This would make blending every bit as eco friendly as the best of them - better if a total energy audit were conducted on the various biofuels.

Of course this is all based on the assumptions that blending works for you, your engine and it's/your modus operandi.

cheers, Michael

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Fitian,
I thought the blend would be ok in your engine when starting because I am sure it is in better condition than mine having done only about 1/3rd the mileage. I'm also thinking that my glow plugs may be on the way out so better start looking at that pretty soon.

Michael,

I have also thought of using Ethanol.
Does it blend with WVO?
The tests I did with Methanol showed it repelled mixing with WVO and seperated in minutes. I tried mixing it with a little detergent added and while it looked good initially, it still seperated within hours.
I'm of the understanding Methanol and Ethanol are closely related so i'm wondering about how well Ethanol would mix with the oil?
I know the unleaded I'm using is an ethanol blend but not sure if it is staying mixed because of the petrol or it is soluble in WVO on its own.

If it is blendable with WVO, do you know a source in Sydney I could obtain it from and what the going price is?

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Fitian, do tell, what's in the MB pre filter? Replaced one just recently but didn't open it up.
cheers, Michael

Hi Michael, I will break one open and post a photo of it soon.

I have been using this filter on my car since I got it and I've been told they are recommended. But above all, I have seen how it filtered the dirt comming from the tank after switching from Diesel to bio. It is known that biodiesel cleans the walls of the tank after the long use of diesel. This filter has done a great job. You can order them from MB spares 1300 787 300.

More about it soon

Regards,

Fitian

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David, don't know if ethanol blends with WVO and remains blended. Will acquire some tomorrow and commence test batch #4. Can't see why it would separate though as it has v. similar properties to ulp, but as I said - don't know but will find out.

Can't help with suppliers in Syderney, will be flat out sourcing in Canberra (nearest big town) at a reasonable price. Will ring the bulk fuel suppliers for suggestions. They are helpful down here

Fitian, found the old pre filter I replaced and opened her up and there's only mesh in the Hengst one. Well there was some stuff that looked like coffee grounds in it too. Assume that's a seal that's breaking down somewhere

cheers, Michael

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

18 hours later and no change in any batch. Michael

[angus@aroundyoga.com Member Find all posts View Profile Close angus@aroundyoga.com]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Nice viscosity test Michael, I'd been wondering how to easily test viscosity. It would be interesting to see how quickly the bubbles float up in pure diesel, because then you'll know how far off any blend's viscosity is from diesel viscosity, which we know will be OK.

I just received my big conversion kit from elsbett, and in the manual they recommend blending with diesel below -10 degrees centigrade,

Until I've got it fitted I'm going to go with the ULP / WVO blend, I'd previously been blending diesel.

The c250 was in the garage with, oddly enough, an ELECTRICAL problem with the fuel cutoff valve. They put some diesel in it so I'll use that up then put a blend in.

How successful do you think in-tank blending would be? : Ie fill up with vegie oil and add 10% ulp at the servo.

They're already looking at me funny because I get only $10 worth of diesel every week :-)

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Angus,
The viscosity test was an accident of observation which made sense when watching the bubbles rise. No it's not accurate and a purist would rip me to shreds, but it's good enough for me. I'll try straight diesel on the weekend and see.
I'm told the elsbett kit is the best. Must be with new injectors an all.
In tank blending ................... I'm blending (shaking) in 20 litre plastic jerry cans then pouring into the tank. So don't know but suspect the sloshing in the tank would be adequate - at your own risk.
cheers, Michael