Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Alga,
Based on the contents of the article that Tim referred to in his initial post and the other matters raised in this forum, i like to add to your recommendation at the end of your post...
with regard to minimising oxidation and polymerisation...
1. keep your fuel tank more full rather than less full (to minimise the wvo exposure to oxygen)
2. add at least a few percent of ulp to wvo
Laurie

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hi Alga what is your blend and pecentage?

Cheers Peter

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hi peter, I use 2.5lt of ULP, 3lt BD and top up a 20lt drum with filtered WVO. My triton ute clatters a bit at start up but that goes away once warmed up. I only changed to blends in the cruiser yesterday so won't know how that goes for a few days, as its a completely different setup. I also filter my BD before adding it after sitting it for at least 4 weeks, as I don't tritate and always get some gunk out after settling. A FPHE will go into the triton when it comes back from the mechanic (gearbox).

I'm interested in this as I've ordered a 300LT tank for the triton and it will be plain steel. I agree with the ULP having a benefitial effect, but all my blend samples, even those without ULP haven't reacted in any way.

I did notice yesterday that the metal fuel lines from the pump to the filter and then IP in the cruiser, heatup quite quickly.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hello Alga,

How did you arrive at your blend ratio?

Peter

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Getting back on thread - I'm still puzzled by how the tomato paste formed. There is a lot of conjecture in the discussion, but no real explanation to why Brian has such a bad dose, and very few others can claim to have seen even a small amount.

Those proclaiming inadequate filtering; it's an easy target from those of us that treat filtration with adulation. But what do we filter out? Bits of crud, and fat, not oil. For the bits of crud to be the problem, they must form part of a chemical or mechanical catalyst that helps oxidise and polymerise the oil. Why then don't we find the tomato paste inside our drums that we use to store unfiltered oil? I've not got any, not even a little bit, and they get exposed to the air, splashed around, not loved much at all.

I think what Brian had is the result of a chemical reaction - doh
It must be something to do with the base oil - cottonseed; and the environment in which it was contained - the steel tank.

His solution has been successful so far - painting the tank so as to change the environmental aspect - removing the catalyst. He's still not filtering any finer going into his tank....

My thoughts on posting the photo's where to create interest and discussion, and to understand how it has happened so all the rest of us can avoid it. If we don't understand how it has happened, any solutions are simply trial and error.

Tim

[W123 x 2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close W123 x 2]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Firstly, there is an assumption being made that what is happening is polymerisation. Why is it red? Why doesn't it happen to cotton seed oil in static unpainted steel tanks? Why doesn't it happen when well filtered and dewatered? And why doesn't it happen when blended.

I use used cotton seed oil in an unpainted steel tank - no issues (but it is blended). I store used cotton seed in a unpainted steel tank for months on end before blending - no issues (but it is filtered and dewatered).

I suspect it may well be a bacterial slime that has developed. If you combine food (waste oil), suspended water, and oxygen (sloshing around in tank), it is an ideal growth medium. This would explain why it doesn't happen in static tanks - less oxygen and the water settles out, due to no agitation. It also explains why it doesn't happen with ulp blends. It also explains why it doesn't happen when the oil is filtered and dewatered. In short removing one of the elements (air and/or water) or poisoning the other (with ulp) stops the growth. The colour also fits with a growth medium and a lack of light.

The above is only a theory, but it fits. So, someone, anyone, please put the stuff to the test to determine what it is, before we all go rushing off to treat an incorrectly diagnosed symptom.

MC

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I noticed there was a lot of rust in the tank in question and wonder if that was caused by the cleaning process or the reaction. I also store my oils in steel drums and checked a couple today that have been sitting in the weather for at least a year, they have a lot of water in them, but after I drained them, there's no gunk or anything but a couple of spots of rust near the top.

Could there have been something else in the tank before hand, like diesel additives. I agree the stuff should be tested to see what it is. To me it looks like a cocktail of chemicals that have combined and fermented. As there are also dairies and egg products in fried foods and you add the chemicals and other additives, plus water and agitation and you may get this reaction. But I'm just guessing.

Peter, my blends are trial and error, at the moment this blend is working fine. I will probably reduce the ULP to see how that goes, as the cruiser is knocking a bit until fully warmed up, FPHE going on soon.

[DutchAussie Member Find all posts View Profile Close DutchAussie]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hi there, the vehicle/tank as shown above is mine, so hopefully I can help to answer some of the questions.

I have been running the oil for almost two years now. Reasonably early on I saw the presence of the polymer in my filter and as it started to block up the pickup line. I had no idea what it was or how to deal with it, even after extensive searches on the subject. Towards the end I had to lift the tank out to get access to the underside floor in the back and found that the scum was quite thick and was mainly prevalent on the top of the tank and decreased towards the bottom.

The oil comes from a fish'n'chip shop and they run it through a paper filter prior to pumping into the drums. For this reason and because I have chosen to a Vormax I do not do any other filter except for a basic gauze inline filter as it comes from my transfer pump into the car tank.

There was no formation of the polymer in my drums.

The tank is not galvanised and I have confirmed from inspection and from the manufacturer, who guarantees it is not due to the hassles and they stopped doing it long ago.

I have read that adding an antioxidant would have probably prevented the formation of the polymer. Apparently iron is good in acting as a catalyst in this reaction, although thankfully copper is much better (worse for us) in cuaing the polymer to occur. The only thing I don't know about is what sort of antioxidant would be best for my situation.

Brian,

have you been mixing your SVO with ULP in this tank?

The reason I am asking this question is:

ULP contains a number of chemicals which may cause this problem.

The myth about sugar in petrol may be a myth but try mixing some sugar with ULP. I haven't tried it. Does it form a gummy deposit?

Someone mentioned sugar and salt in SVO so the ULP could be a problem.

Just another thought.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Firstly, there is an assumption being made that what is happening is polymerisation. Why is it red? Why doesn't it happen to cotton seed oil in static unpainted steel tanks?

I have seen this red stuff on countless steel drums that I used to get my oil in from the fish and chip shop which were also cottonseed oil. It would usually form around the lid ( steel lid and screw fitting) on the drums when it had ben spiled and not cleaned off. Thinking about it, I usually saw it when the drum had been left out in the rain as the water could be tipped off but the goo remained sutbbonly even when wiped with a rag.
The red stuff went very thick and often made unscrewing the lids off the drums impossible by hand due to its "Locktite" like effect.

When it stops raining I'll go out and see if I have any of these drums left ( been trying to get rid of them for months!) and I'll take some pics if I can find any with this stuff on them.

I believe this stuff is caused by the oil breaking down. It would appear air exosure is one cause but the exact causes and triggers or combintion thereof are what needs to be determined in order to prevent it.

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

My first thought was biological, similar to th eproblems marine diesels, or so I have read, have with the formation of slime and sludge in their tanks.

I also thought - " I hope there is none of that in my tank!"

Geoff

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I have avoided contributing to this discussion until now, as I had previously given advice on it, but now members are now giving the advice I gave on 02/04/2007.

I was asked about this issue in April.
I sent the following reply.

Tim, Brian,
I have not received any pictures.

Tomato Skin in veggie tank?

We would need to determine what the 'tomato skin' is, before deciding
on any action.
Get a sample, try to burn some. Burns? - easily or not well
Try to dissolve in diesel, petrol, kero or water?
OR, send off to an analytical chemist to determine composition and
possibly the cause.

I have heard of a build up in fuel tanks but have not come across this
issue personally.

Please send the photos.

My advice was ignored. The person with the problem is still looking for a free answer. The answer is in HIS hands, if he has the substance analysed.

Brian, please spend the money to analyse the substance so that you know what it is. Then you can find out why it is there.

Following my discussions with him, I was sent a report, linked to in Tim's opening post. This is ONE study and caused me some concern, but did not fit with my experience in the use of veggie oil. I referred it to Phillip (co author of the paper we wrote), who indicated that there were many issues with the methods and conclusions in the study. I have searched for other reports which support or contradict this one, to no avail.

I therefore do not put much credence on this report, as far as it relates to the use of vegetable oils as vehicle fuels. If someone has further research to compare, I would be interested in reading it.

Regards,
Tony

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Tony,

I've started this posting, not Brian. I took the photo's at the time, and have a sample of the stuff that I will bring to the meeting tomorrow for everyones interest. Due to a hard disk crash I lost my photo's. I managed to retrieve them from Brian, then posted them to the forum for everyone's interest and benefit - which is starting to happen with the focus on biological - and David's observation of seeing this stuff before.

I think Brian did have some initial analysis done at the time, and AFAIK he has solved the problem by painting the tanks, so it's no longer his concern.

Tim

[Guest Close David]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I went out to have a look at the few tins I have left but the ones I have held on to are the cleaner ones or have the plastic thread inserts and lids and none of them have have the goo. I might try putting some oil around the lids of a few and seeing if I can re create the effect.

Tony,
Where would a person actually send this stuff to be anylised and what would they ask? Would the lab need some specification of what you are looking for over a " What is it?" request?
What is your ballpark estimate of what such a test would cost?

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

Hello,

To back up Davids observation on the red sticky stuff relating to cottonseed oil on the top of drums, yes I have this as well on several of my drums. They were the drums underneath other drums that I had to move due my farm being flooded out in Newcastle. All 340acres of it amazing. The drought has broken here!!!!

Cheers Peter

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Oxidisation/Polymerisation on Cottonseed oil - photos

I went out to have a look at the few tins I have left but the ones I have held on to are the cleaner ones or have the plastic thread inserts and lids and none of them have have the goo. I might try putting some oil around the lids of a few and seeing if I can re create the effect.

Tony,
Where would a person actually send this stuff to be anylised and what would they ask? Would the lab need some specification of what you are looking for over a " What is it?" request?
What is your ballpark estimate of what such a test would cost?

Perhaps try approaching a local University Chemistry Dept. They often do that kind of thing.

If it were put under a powerful microscope, it would be pretty easy to tell if it were biological or not.